Afrikaans ?

Jam Blomerus - Afrikaanse bome ?
Know of individuals identifying as Afrikaans with more than 69 % British atDNA and very English surnames.
Also others with what would be called Afrikaans names and surnames that are completely English.
From what I see on Geni not so easy to identify the Genealogical Tee of someone as Afrikaans.
The non-European mtdna origins of many Afrikaans families ( let us assume here Afrikaans as a group ) have had definite influence on the diseases they are susceptible to and subsequent age .

Louis Scholtz -- yes maybe I should rather say Afrikaans has been misappropriated by a specific group in South Africa as only theirs with disastrous repercussions but it actually the first language of a much larger community.Not the fault of Afrikaans per se

The " coloured " community where I live identify as Afrikaans and Afrikaner. Their culture very definitely Afrikaans even more than other Afrikaners here. Surnames and names always very Afrikaans if one could really demarcate it as such.
Siblings here that lived on different sides of the great divide in SA.

J P Weyers die gebruik van eufemismes vir steel soos "misappropriate" maak jou stelling nie minder aanstootlik nie. Dit is ten eerste onmoontlik om 'n taal te steel. Ten tweede was dit ook geensins die oogmerk met die standardisering van Afrikaans om dit van sy sprekers te ontneem nie, Dit het in dieselfde tydvak gebeur as die standardisering van Nederlands en het, ten goede en tot die voordeeel van alle Afrikaanssprekendes, gelei tot die skepping van 'n klinkende byteljie om die beskuldigings dat Afrikaans niks meer as 'n kombuistaal is nie die nek om te draai. In plaas daarvan om die reuse werk wat mense met 'n passie vir Afrikaans gelewer het om die mooi instrument te skep, tot voordeel van almal wat Afrikaanssprekend is, te misken en te beledig, kan ons eerder dankbaar wees dat Afrikaans nog altyd leef en nie totaal deur Engels verdring is nie.

Jan Blomerus -- " . Hoop u horison kan verskuif na die doen van navorsing oor hoe om navorsing te doen " ?
My time at the moment mostly spend on
Molecular Biology and Evolution -- busy helping research on mtdna mostly L haplogroup .

There I digress again .

JAN Blomerus ---
Afrikaanse bome kyk, was ons Afrikaanse lewensverwagting vir dames seker 10+ jaar meer
= The geographic origins of populations can be identified by their maternally inherited mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) haplogroups. This comparison mostly between African and European mtDNA . Hopefully a much broader project would evolve from this including more regions .
I think a very definite correlation ,.Which Afrikaanse dames lived 10+ years longer what are their mtDNA ? The further influence of atDNA ?

A very interesting subject .

Louis Scholtz, j4 -- see what Professor Willemse have to say .

More than an oppressor’s language: reclaiming the hidden history of Afrikaans

https://theconversation.com/more-than-an-oppressors-language-reclai...

This is an edited, updated version of an article Prof Willemse wrote for Mistra in 2015.

i quote __

The GRA sought to actively demarcate “their language” to the point of diminishing and stigmatising other speakers’ claim to it. They declared their own version of Cape Dutch as prestige “Burger Afrikaans”, the distinct “white man’s language”.

Doggedly, these early Afrikaner language nationalists and their successors modified, standardised and modernised a spoken language. The racial prejudice and middle class bias underlying many of their choices had far-reaching implications. In denying the commonality of their fellow Afrikaans speakers who were descendants of slaves, indigenous people or simply poor, they were elevating the language to a narrow ethnic nationalist cause. Afrikaans was constructed as a “white language”, with a “white history” and “white faces”.

https://theconversation.com/more-than-an-oppressors-language-reclai...

This again just in case

Sandra Troskie
20/1/2022 at 16:16
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"Afrikaans was in actuality a language coming from Europe which was brought to South African by Jan van Riebeeck and the sailors coming from the Netherlands, France and Belgium." This is definitely not the case. The deepest origin of Afrikaans lies in the Khoi and slaves that traded with first the Portuguese (who spoke the Malay-Portuguese lingua of the traders of the day). When the Dutch Jan van Riebeeck landed in what was to become known as the Cape, Autshumato - chief of the Goringhaikona - and his niece Krotoa already spoke a prototype of Afrikaans. This influence gave Afrikaans a distinctly different character than that of Dutch, because it developed to "speak Africa", not European. Yes, today 80% of this language vocabulary is near to Dutch, but this was a late 20th century development, when the language was purposefully developed for inter alia academic purposes. This is also true for Bahasa Indonesia. Consult a dictionary and you will see that more or less 80% of this language's vocabulary is derived from Dutch. Today the majority of Afrikaans speakers are neither white nor Calvinists. Afrikaans people are not Europeans. We are the descendants of peoples from right across the globe: North, South, East and West. As our language, we were made in South Africa.

One can also consider the Civic Satus accorded to individuals relating to origins or birth or language n The Cape of Good Hope and the impact it had on the genealogy and genetics of South Africans.
Top of the list
1. Dutch speaking European born dutch Reformed
2. The Dutch speaking children of those in number 1 but born at the Cape. Dutch Reformed
3. People born at the Cape speaking mostly Kombuistaal/ Creole Dutch
4. Vry Swartes and people of mixed ancestry speaking Kombuistaal / Creole Dutch -- my ancestors . but Dutch Reformed
5. People of the Bo-Kaap speaking Kombuistaal /Creole Dutch . Muslim and not Dutch Reformed . also my ancestors

at the bottom
6.Slaves

By becoming a Dutch Reformed Church member ( converting ) or only speaking Dutch , people then and later immediately elevated their position and career prospects .

Then after 1804 English born or English speaking took over that first position up to 1948 .

Just a historical fact

For too long a time Afrikaans speaking South Africans or Afrikaners born in South Africa were seen as and treated as Inferior by Dutch Speaking or English Speaking South Africans especially by those not born in South Africa . Something I definitely do not approve of , condone or agree with .

J P Weyers wat ons vandag onder die sambreel term Afrikaans ken, is ‘n versameling van standaard Afrikaans en verskeie variëteite van Afrikaans. Nie een van die variëteite het ‘n groter rol in die gebruik of onstaan van Afrikaans nie. Dit is so dat die GRA ook ‘n politiese oogmerk gehad het om Afrikaans te gebruik om Afrikaners saam te snoer. En dat die GRA hul eie variëteit gekies het om te ontwikkel om Afrikaans as ‘n volwaardige taal te laat groei wat op alle vlakke van diesamelewign gebruik kon word. Het dit die sprekers van ander variëteite verhoed om dieselfde te doen? Sekerlik nie. Het die sprekers van ander variëteite dieselfde passie vertoon om iets soortgelyks te doen? Ek kan geen bewys daarvoor sien nie. Was die idee dat die verskillende aanleerder vorms van Nederlandse almal klassifiseer as Afrikaans in die 19de eeu aanvaar of selfs oor gepraat? Ek twyfel.
Die stelling dat nie net Autshumato, maar ook Krotoa al reeds ‘n vorm van Afrikaans gepraat het met van Riebeeck se aankoms aan die Kaap, is hoogs twyfelagtig. In van Riebeeck se eerste verwysing na Autshumato in sy Daghregister, skryf hy as volg:
“Sondagh, 7 do [April 1652]
... ende dat sijlieden deselve nietjegenstaende onse absentie souden aen lant setten ende intregen in handen van den Ottento die Engelss spreeckt ”
Hy verwys hier na Autshumato, oftwel Herrie (Harry) soos hy deur die Engelse genoem is. Jy sal merk dat van Riebeeck nie sê dat Autshumato Nederlands praat nie.
Na sy ontmoeting skryf hy egter, nogal ontnugterd, die volgende:
“Cregen desen avont oock 2 wilden+ aen boort, daer onder een die wat Engels sprack, welcke wij den buijck met eeten ende drincken dapper vulden.”
Jy sal merk dat die Engelse spaakkuns van Autshumato toe enigsens afgeskaal is na “een die wat Engels sprack”. Op die trant skryf van Riebeeck reëlmatig later oor “een die wat Engels sprack”, sonder enige verwysing dat Nederlands, in enige vorm, ooit gebruik is nie.
Voor sover dit Krotoa betref, kan ek geen enkel verwysing vind dat sy enige vorm van Nederlands kon praat voor sy deur van Riebeeck ingeneem is nie.
Maar wat nou van al die V.O.I.K. werknemers wat uit verskillende lande in Europa in diens getree en vir ongeveer 3 maande op die boot Nederlands moes aanleer. Aan die hand van die V.O.I.K. seemanstaal wat sedert die laat 16de eeu reeds aangevul is met woorde uit die Ooste en Portugees. Na my mening sou die mense na 3 maande aan boord aan die Kaap geland het met ‘n beter beheer van “Nederlands” wat later uigegroei het tot een van die variëteite van Afrikaans. ‘n Variëteit gebore uit hul eerste kontak met Nederlandse seemanstaal en ingekleur met woordeskat uit hul plekke van herkoms, soos bv. die Plattdüütsch van die Noorde van Duitsland.

Louis Scholtz, j4
Today at 8:49
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Phillipp Weyers (R-U106), ek dink nie dat Geni die forum is om onstaan en gskiedenis van Afrikaans uit te pluis nie, maar dit is maar net my beskeie mening. ?

This commnent -- friends in USA unaware of GENI and see what happens on GENI as just amusement and not real genealogy ; so what we do here irrelevant as far as Genealogical reserch goes .
Do I agree ? Not really ; I hope everything any of us do matters and has positive impact wherever we do it or talk about it . Rather that anyday than silencing anyone that does not agree with one . Everyone must contribute .
Does it matter? Yes it does .
So glad nowadays we all can voice our opinions and views even in South Africa .
Even if one person hears my MONOLOG I have achiecved something .

J P Weyers, ek kan nie sien dat jou bydrae hier enigsens positief is of die oogmerk het om 'n positiewe impak te maak nie. My mening is dat jy Geni misbruik vir dialoogvoering wat elders tuis hoort en geen betrekking op Genealogie het nie.

Jan Blomerus -
AFRIKAANSE BOME ?
Afrikaanse dames ?
You refer to in your comment.

Afrikaanse Bome as in Genealogical Family Trees ?

Afrikaanse dames ? Who would in included in this group.
Estelle Agulhas my friend from Saldanha ( Afrikaans speaking Xhosa mother from Beaufort West and father Afrikaans speaking Ghananian origin from Saldanha )
or
Ilse van Heemert Afrikaans speaking ( Dutch patrents from Netherlands )
Or does Afrikaanse Bome refer to those flat top trees painted by Pierneef?
Afrikaanse Bome as in Genealogy definitely proof the validity and relevance of this discussion.

Now Sharon Doubell on Geni ?
Afrikaanse dame
Or
Engelse dame ?
Her family tree then ?
Engelse boom ?
Even though some " Afrikaners " in her tree ?
Maybe her tree hallf Afrikaans and half Engels 🤔

Could you perhaps explain the term .

Afrikaanse Bome

See research done 1976 so mught be from research done under previos regime so not very reliable. Notoriously biased to please those in power.

Thx for link to Our Obsession Sharon.

Die gesprek is mynd insiens onvanpas en het min met Geanologie uit te waai.

Jan blomerus added :

"As demograaf myself ook kan ek nogal baie wysheid daar sien, maar dan veral van sy vernaamste werke het dan veral gehandel oor populasie data wat vir hom toeganklik was (op my radar sy 1979 publikasie oor die "verskuiwing" van die ouderdomsgrens). Ek onderstreep dan veral in 1840-60s, volgens sy latere navorsing, was Swede die plek met die hoogste verwagte lewensverwagting in die wereld, maar soos ek na ons Afrikaanse bome kyk, was ons Afrikaanse lewensverwagting vir dames seker 10+ jaar meer! Net nie op sy radar nie... hier is 'n oorhoofse skakel... https://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=nl&as_sdt=0%2C5&a......=

So who are Afrikaanse he refers to in this ?
Definitly geneology ; so would like to clarify AFRIKAANSE BOME .
Afrikaanse dames and Afrikaanse lewensverwagtings --- who are these people ? Who are included in these bome , dames and lewensverwagtings ?

Afikaanse bome > Family trees of Afrikaners or Afrikaans sprekendes .

Afrikaanse lewensverwagtings ?? example Hermanus Gerhardus van Rensburg --- 3 of his sons became English speaking after Anglo-Boer war . Now their and their children 's life expextancy suddenly different from that of the Afrikaans speaking siblings ?

The family tree of Jack van Rensburg not an Afrikaanse Boom but an Engelse Boom ?

His more Afrikaans speaking sibling will then havbe an Afrikaanse Boom ?

That rational makes no sense to me but maybe just my opinion .

So if a 'dame ' / woman spoke Afrikaans she lived 10 years longer ? What ?

Who did this research ? Seems to me done in 1970's to fit Cinderella's slipper .

From what I can see Afrikaner or Afrikaans ( AFRIKAANSE BOME ) in Geneoalogy and on GENI in ethinicites more fluid and decided by the individual rather than a definite designa]tion .

As Sandra Troskie also states in her comment .

Even Hermann Giliomee in his book THE AFRIKANERS struggled to define exactly what is an Afrikaner really .

Even in this I believe he got it wrong not all Afrikaners part of this small minority group.

The Rise and Demise of the Afrikaners
https://www.amazon.com › Rise-Demise-Afrikaners-Her...
Acclaimed historian Hermann Giliomee explains the dramatic ascent - and possible demise - of a small minority group that dominated 20th-century South Africa ...

All lions are animals but not all animals are lions .

So F Jacobs you are 100 % correct the terms/designations/desription Afrikaanse and Afrikaners do not really belong in Genealogy and that the is why I started this discussion . They much boader and wider desriptions than as applied in the Term ' Afrikaanse Bome ' or ' Afrikaanse lewensverwagtings '

There are no Afrikaanse vanne /surnames , the surnames in SA can not be put in an Afrikaans box or English box or German box --Same with Ferreira surname from Portugal , France and Spain . My own surmame from all over Europe nothing there to define it as Dutch or German .
WE all too often make the mistake of making a language the Genealogical or Ethinicities marker ; it is not ..

Fanie Jacobs you actually get it .
Jacobs from Jacob van Macassar ( son of Jacob ) in SA , from France , from Netherlands , from UK , From Switzerland . Jacobs also Jewish , Muslim , RC or Protestant -- not defined by a religion .

Afrikaans the first language of about 8 million plus in SA .
Afrikaners include people from any Religion and any 'Colour ' a fluid description not within set boundaries decided in fact more by the individual self .
Most Afrikaners / ' Afrikaanse mans en dames ' in Afrikaanse Bome ( as Jan Blomerus describes them ) not part of that small minority in --The Rise and Demise of the Afrikaners

Here I can also add the atDNA or YDna or mtDNA names as Iberian , German or Scandinavian . It is impossible to put them in little boxes --they refuse boundaries .
my Ydna matces such a vast area that to define it as german or proto german is not really correect
I have atDNA marches with nearly every language or Ethinicity in the world . My grandfather born in Prussia , now Germany from a group that identified as Franks still in 1880's or Bavarian but not as Germans >>>> Austrians speak a different form of German , they are not 'Germans ' and most in modern Austria have very diffrent genetics than those living in modern Germany .
Therefore the terminology used in Genealogy often not really correct.
Fench Huguenot ? some already had wives or husbands that were not French or French speaking when they arrived in SA -- so my French ancestors often turn out to be Norman or Viking ancestors or Visigoths or >> Avar ancestors even Belgian >> Flemish >> Franks ??

Reasons we use Language or skin colour as part of our Genealogy or Ethnicity are multiple .
In in SA I think 46 years of a certain Ideology and even before 1948 have made most of us believe that that is what defines us a group,
It is actually it is a much wider group than most want to choose to believe or realize and with no real boundaries but fluid all the time ; forever changing .
There are NO Afrikaanse Bome and dames . Your life expectancy has very little or nothing to do with being Afrikaans or an Afrikaner as Jan Blomerus claims ..
Apartheid era ideology also tried to create that myth of PURE European geneology and origin .
often darker relatives just excluded from 'research ' ; maybe they needed lessons ?

Too many in SA believed that VALS /Fake genealogy that would provide proof of their superiority because of genealogy / genetics . This already started in 1870's for mostly political reasons to create a separate Afrikaner Identity based more on skintone and incorrect perceived origins than real origins by the Academics -- I include here even Cecil John Rhodes -- and now have to face the truth of real proper researched genealogy not restricted to fit an idea or opinion .

I correctly should have include all the official languages in SA as part of this dicussion not just Afrikaans .
Most of I say about Afrikaans or Afrikaners true about Zulu or Xhosa or any other group in SA seeing Language or racial origin as the marker /designator/description . ( ? ) of their genealogy or their group .
No ZULU Boom / Family tree in genealogy , people who identify as Zulu have ancestry often from every other language or Ethnicity group in SA .
Do we include Matabele in Zimbabwe as ZULU ?

Reitz was an important figure in Afrikaner cultural life. He was a poet, and published many poems in Afrikaans, making him a progenitor of the development of Afrikaans as a cultural language. As such he sympathised with the Genootskap van Regte Afrikaners (Society of Real Afrikaners), established in the Cape Colony in 1875. Although he never became a member himself, he was an active contributor to the society's journal, Die Suid-Afrikaansche Patriot. With his literary work, Reitz was solidly anchored in the so-called First Afrikaans Language Movement, although he was less interested in the didactic drive of that movement than in writing in Afrikaans as a purely cultural activity. Much of his work was based on English texts, which he translated, edited, and adapted. In the process he produced completely new works of art.

For Reitz, Afrikaans was predominantly a language of culture, not of government, where he propagated the use of the official language of the Boer republics, Dutch. During his presidency of the Orange Free State, where the use of English was significant among the burghers, he strongly promoted the use of Dutch, against politicians like John G. Fraser and others who were in favour of English.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francis_William_Reitz

Ek sal graag die rigting wat die gesprek gevolg het verder voer."Afrikaans?
As ons die verskillende persepsies oor Afrikaans uit die weg skuif en ons kyk hoe die geskiedenis vanaf die middeleeue die verskillende Germaans?frankies/Romeins/Gotiese en Asiatiese tale gelei het tot n skeeps/"Slang" komunikasie middel wat para verbind is tot verbindingslyne wat heelwat verskil van die vorstelike "gebeure" kry ons n dieper insig oor die geanologie veral as beskou word teen DNS en bevolkings bewegings..
My belandstelling is gegrond op die volgende persepsies:Dokumentere navorsing in die Afrikaanse en RSA konteks is naby voltooing omdat ons gelukkig was om VOC dokumente te he--binne kort is dit "google" info.
Geanologie beweeg in die rigting van ParaDigma ,om n omstrede term te gebruik..
Dns kan ons net help om Argeologie beter te verstaan---Stambome is beperk tot die leeftyd van papier dokumente.. Skiet my af

Language, ethnicity and cultural identity
Modern English mixture of Saxon , Britonic , Scandinavian and Romance languages.
As you say lot of it from trade routes starting where the different groups came into contact with one another.
Listen to admixture of languages of people on SA TV being interviewed.
Also the Afrikaans in fromer Transvaal also different from Cape Afrikaans.
Canadian French , Alsatian French and Creole of Cajuns compared to Paris French or South Western France ?
Sitting in London listening to 3 very English sounding individuals with parents rom South Africa ,Zimbabwe and Botswana . What they had in common was Parents from Africa : Afrikaans van Rooyen + Afrikaans Coloured, Erasmus , English Rhodesian Mitchell +Afrikaans from Eastern Cape Badenhorst , Tswana Molefe + English Jones .

Yet all identified as English.

The Mitchell my relative share grt grt grandfather Hendrik Jacobs

Phillipjy het my voorgespring ek wou nou die latynse tale en afrika tale bybring,voor ek DNA of-- DNS bybring.Choose your taal.,dit sal jou waarskynlik in n kontinent plaas mits daar n tydlyn by is..Dis my stelling op taal:Die skryfwyse en fonetiek op ongedateerde dokumente help om die tyd lyn te skat.Dus handgeskrewe dokumente waarmoontlik by die profiel geplaas word en enige vertaling kan bygevoeg word-die vertaling sal interpretasie insluit soos ons reeds ondervind op getikte Precis van museums.
DNS toetse-ek gebruik FTdna as voorbeeld-gee op die goedkoper {populere} toets weinig meer as van watter kontinent jy afkomstig is.-die "700"{duurder toets }bring mens darem baie nader.
MY Punt ?:Taal en Dna is albei hulp middels wat kundige ontleding nodig het en ons moet oorspronklike doks en oorspronklike DNA by die "Source"bewaar en afleidings moet met oorleg hanteer word.My vader en moederlyn DNA resultate is albei op Jacobs profiele aangebring. !
My laaste punt:Paradogma kan amper nog n betekenis kry{humor} ParaDIGma waar die DIG vir digitaal staan.Hoe meer keer n stelling herhaal word hoe nader aan die waarheid.Dit is n verskynsel wat reeds ingesluip het op Stamvader profiele waar navorsers{Versamelaars} sy eie persepsie soveel keer as moontlik herhaal en sie daar-dis nou n digitale Digma{feit}
Op n ander plek gesels ek graag oor Jacobs JAAKOPZ of JEICOBS wat terugkom op wat ons hierbo op gesels het.
Ek sluit af met n klip in die bos Kaaps soos ons dit tans hoor op kyknet -is dit engels of is dit afrikaans of is dit dalk die nuwe afrikaans of die afrolish-n engelse dialek?
Guitige groete Faan--In engels Pronounce hul Dit Fanny of Funny,daarom het ek Steve gebruik
op die eilandjie