Klas Fleming, Spekulativ ! - Elisabet Sundholm's question regarding a connection to Italy

The story has been put on paper 200 - 400 years afterwards and therefore not fully exact.

But taiking into account the timeframe of the story about 1200 - 1400 it's more likely refers to Ottocar ll of Bohemia, than Charles lV,. Ottocar ll was a proponent of a well orginised kingdom with new rent and tax approach for which Henrico, as his rent and tax Master, was awarded a shield with 8. gold coins between two closen chests.

Ottocars grandfather Ottiocar l had family relatives in as well Sicily as Denmark.

So who was this kejsar Caroli...
who employed a rent and tax master with connections to Sicily
was so pleased that he gave him a shield with 8 coins...
living in 1300 century?

Looking forward for candidates.

We have four generations from 1197 - 1397

1. Henrico Hermanno Flemingo, maybe baptised as child 1197 in Sicily, tax and rent master for whom, and rewarded a shield with 8 coins.. for 8 y job
2. his son
3. his grandson
4. his great grandson Claws Fleming joining his relatve Erik Xlll Pommerist in 1397 to Sweden and calls the awarded estate Coinvillage.

Utgår från att Gamle Arvid Trolles berättelse inte är tagen ur luften och att den kopierats ord för ord av Joackim Fleming men tyvärr kan det ha smygit in ett "tryckfel".

Ifall Henrico Hermanno Flemingo har döpts som barn år 1197 har han varit anställd som ränt och skattmästare hos någon furste på 1200-talet INTE på 1300 talet när han skulle ha varit 140 år.

Tackar för diskussionen o önskar GLAD PÅSK

Jag inte forskat inom området, men en koppling till Italien låter långsökt även för mig och skulle vara förvånad ifall detta skulle vara ett nytt forskningsrön. Därför är det viktigt att saken diskuteras öppet och hypotesen "provtrycks" i forskargemenskapen före det implementeras i trädet.

I övrigt startade jag tråden endast på basen av Elisabets meddelande till mig.

Hade tänkt ta Påskledigt men kan inte låta bli att kommentera. Tror inte att denna story skulle ingå i en publ. av kungl. sekr. Anders Anton Stiernmans i publikationen fr. 1745 över fogdar i Svea o Göta rike.ifall den skulle vara tagen ur luften.

Men jag delar Stiernmans åsikt att det är osannolikt att ifall Henrico vore född år 1197 skulle ha fungerar som ränte- och skattmästare på 1400-talet. Här har det blivit fel.

Ifall han är döpt år 1197 är det mer sannolikt att han förnyat jordränte och skatterna för Ottokar Ii, 1253-1278. Kolla upp honom. Ottokar ll farfar Ottokar l hade om jag inte missminner mig släkt i såväl Sicilien som Danmark. Det nämns att Claws var på något vis släkt med Erik XIii.

Det skulle vara intressant att vetää vad som har nedtecknats i den version som finns från Strassbourg som skall finnas på Uppsala uni.

Sedan är det en annan fråga huruvida Henrico är döpt år 1197 eller senare och om han lyfts upp Ur Dopet och av vem. Det Kan man lämna åt sidan i dethär skedet.

En viktigare aspekti är huruvida det är troligt.med fyra generationer mellan 1197 - 1396 eller fattas en el fler?

Sedan beträffande förnamnen, så nämns de som varit vanliga i familjen, troligtvis att uppfatta som de namn den förstfödde sonen fått.

Penningeby Borg med sitt orginella form existerar i Uppland än idag och Fleming nämns som ägare men inte nämnt när.

Ursprunget till namnet har man inte kunnat härleda eller näe det byggts. Man tror att de äldsta delarna kan vara fr. ca 1420 alltså efter det att Claws Fleming följde Erik Xlll till Sverige 1396 året efter ev brodern (?) Johan dog 1395.

Namnet Penningbyn har man inte lyckats koppla till den förstä sköldem för släkten. I Henricos profil finns länkar till borgen som fascinerat många.

Allt i historien är möjligen inte rätt men vore förvånad om kungl. sekreteraren skulle ha låtit publicera den om det inte finns ett korn av sanning.

I berättelsen finns fyrra generationer Fleming (inte sju);

1. Henrico Hermanno Flemingo, döpt möhligen på Cecilien år 1197

2. Son NN Henricii / Henricsson Flemingo

3. sonson

4. sonsonens son Claws Fleming som kom till Sverige med Erik XIii från Pommern år 1396 året efter brodern (?) Johan dött 1395

Claws fick av Erik Xlll stamgården för familjen som han döpte om efter familjens första sköld 8 guldpenningar mellan två slutna penningkistor namnet Penningebyn.

Vapensköldens GULDmynt indikerar också att Clas var anställd hos Ottokar Ii.

Vanliga namn i familjen är Henric, Herman etc.

@Private User

The phrase “Caroli auctoris aureae Bullae” does not refer to Ottokar II, nor is it a scribal or interpretative error. It is a precise and grammatically correct Latin phrase that refers unambiguously to Charles IV, the Holy Roman Emperor who issued the Golden Bull (Aurea Bulla) in 1356.

The Latin is entirely straightforward:
- Caroli is the genitive form of Carolus (Charles), meaning “of Charles”.
- Auctoris means “author” or “issuer”.
- Aureae Bullae is the genitive of aurea bulla, meaning “Golden Bull”.

So the full phrase means: “of Charles, author of the Golden Bull”.

To suggest that this phrase refers to Ottokar II would require every word in the Latin expression to be wrong:

Caroli would have to be a mistaken version of Ottacari or Otakari - which it is not.

Auctoris would refer to someone who never issued such a document - because only Charles IV did.

Aureae Bullae would have to refer to a document that has absolutely no historical connection to Ottokar II.

There is no linguistic, historical, or legal justification for such a reading. Ottokar II’s name in contemporary Latin sources appears as Ottacarus or Otakarus, with genitive forms Ottacari or Otakari. These are entirely distinct from Carolus and Caroli, and would not have been confused in any formal Latin usage, especially not in administrative or diplomatic contexts.

The title “auctor aureae Bullae” refers precisely and unambiguously to the issuer of the Golden Bull of 1356 - Charles IV, and no other ruler. No one else in medieval Europe, including Ottokar II, has ever been associated with that document or its authorship.

It is therefore entirely unnecessary even to entertain the idea that “Caroli auctoris aureae Bullae” could refer to Ottokar II. The phrase is not a mistake - it is a deliberate, linguistically accurate, and historically grounded reference to Charles IV. For it to refer to Ottokar II, every single word would have to be wrong, which is simply not plausible.

Ottokar II and his family have no connection whatsoever to this document, this Latin title, or its historical context. Their names and offices, as shown in historical sources, are completely unrelated to the Golden Bull and its issuers.

Ulf Martinsson has made thoughtful and relevant observations in this discussion which deserve attention.

Hyvää Pääsiäistä!

While Ottokar II was known as the "Iron and Golden King", this has no connection to the Golden Bull.

The phrase Caroli auctoris aureae Bullae unequivocally refers to Emperor Charles IV, who issued the Golden Bull in 1356. The term Caroli is the genitive form of Carolus, meaning "of Charles." Ottokar II’s Latin name was Ottacarus or Otakarus, with the genitive forms Ottacari or Otakari, not Caroli. These names are distinct and not interchangeable, and there is no possibility of a scribal error or misinterpretation, especially in an official context like this.

This is not a matter of ambiguity or mistake, but rather a historically and linguistically clear fact: Caroli auctoris aureae Bullae means "of Charles, author of the Golden Bull," and cannot refer to Ottokar II.

I agree that there are many uncertainties in this story, and it definitely requires further analysis. Also some generations missing...which affects our understanding of the entire family line. Let’s continue our research journey and discussion. Wishing you a happy Easter!

It's not easy to comment with phone so a revised version hopefully without many typing mistakes.

As i mentioned before I strongly believe there are some.mistakes as the Swedish King's secretary Anders Anton von Stiernman in 1745 raised himself.

Please read the full text. Link in the profile.

I agree that Henrico cannot been employed by Charles lV in case he was baptised in 1197.

So the questions are the following:

1. Has the secretary of the King included a nonsens story in the publication of baliffs in Swea and Göta rike from early days to 1745. If so, which might the motives have been? If not

2. WHO renewed the rent and tax system in Europe in 1300 century so well that it Iis still applied in some countries?

3. Which ruler was so fixed with gold so he rewarded his employee for a well done job with a shield with 8. Gold coins and in between them two closen money chests?

4. Who was the first Fleming WHO came to Sweden and when?

5. WHO joined Erik XIll of Pommern to Sweden in 1396?

6. WHO lived or owned the estate before 1420?

7. WHO namned it Penningbyn and when?

8. WHO built this non typical Nordic castle and when?

9. WHO was The Old Genteman Arvid Trolle mentioned by the Kings secretary, The Judge ?

10. Or who put to paper this nonsens story that Joachim Fleming copied word by word and the Kings secretary published?

and so on..

Looking forward for constructive reasining why this story is complete nonsens.

To conclude.

At least three options:

1. baptised 1197 and then not a rent and tax master for Charles IV instead someone else

or

2. baptised later and then maybe rent- and tax master for Charles iV

or

3. some chapters had been lost during 400 y or "recollation may vary" 

Charles IV Holy roman Emporor, tbe great grandson to Ottokar II

BIOGRAPHY
Karl IV, Holy Roman Emperor, king of Bohemia, was born in Prague on 14 May 1316, the son of Johann 'the Blind', king of Bohemia and Elisabeth of Bohemia, heiress of Bohemia, daughter of Wenceslas II, (son to https://genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00020292&tree=LEO) king of Bohemia and Poland, and sister of Wenceslaus III, king of Hungary, Bohemia and Poland, of the Premyslid dynasty. He was christened Wenceslas after his maternal grandfather, but later chose the name Karl at his confirmation after he went to France, at the court of his uncle, Charles IV of France, where he remained for seven years.

https://genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00007881&tree=LEO

Penninby slott av Askegren

https://askergren.com/penningby.html

Please note

The first shield was awarded to Henrico Hermanno Flemingo if baptised in 1197 for beeing rent and tax master during 8 years in the 1300 century (1200-talet) and can after that haven been carried by his sons, sonsons and great grandson ...all över Europe.