Query on Michael Finlay

Started by Private User on Sunday, September 8, 2024
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Re Michael Finlay

What is the evidence that he is the son of James Finlay and Elizabeth? Finlay

Notes in his overview suggest parents James FINLAY and Judy

Notes in the overview also suggest that his sister is Rose McCourt / McCart
What evidence is there for this assumption?

https://eoe.convictwomenspress.com.au/index.php/biographical-dictio...
In 1837 two sisters were transported to New South Wales on board the Sir Charles Forbes, departing Dublin in August and arriving in Sydney the following January. Rose McCart was 31 years old and said she was born in the West Indies. Her younger sister, Mary McCart, age 30, said she was born in Fermanagh, Ireland.
The sisters were both Protestant married women with children; Rose had two sons, Mary had one son. They were convicted of petty theft offences at Monaghan, in the county next to Fermanagh where Mary was born. Mary, convicted of pickpocketing, was sentenced to transportation on 6 April 1836 and Rose, who stole a basket, was sentenced on 26 October 1836.

Tagging Rose’s sister Mary - Mary McCourt

What’s the evidence that Robert Finlay is his brother

Leanne
Name Michael Finley
Baptism Age 0
Event Type Baptism
Birth Date 1796
Baptism Date 19 Nov. 1796
Baptism Place Kingstown, Dublin, Ireland
Residence Place Clare
Parish Variants Dun Laoghaire, St. Michael's, Kingstown
Diocese Dublin
Father James Finley
Mother Judy Finley

Leanne
This is not confirmed yet by our family.
Ian finlay 1969 on ancestry.com, has spoken to me on the phone. He lives and breaths the Finlay Family. He been to ireland and research his family. I dont know how , and how people have got Michael Finlay parents as James and Sarah. I wish this is true. I just can't find the connection with them.
Michael was working and married in Dublin. Before coming to Australia marrying Caroline Mccarthy. To best of my knowledge i cant find any connection to Tyrone regions or north of Dublin. Wicklow maybe but not north. His sisters and brother i cant find or connection. I would love to finally move from Michael Finlay to his parents and beyond. Thanks for your time and interest Leanne
Graham

Leanne.
Another piece of information. Everyone on this Geni say Finlay/finley were not catholic.
My records and my family that are related to Finlays are all catholics ( high roman catholic speaking latin). my great grandmother , her father edward Finlay ; michael son are all buried at catholic section of murrumburrah ( this is fact ) . I am 100./. sure my Michael Finley/Finlay is Catholic. I am going to check out Maitland and Gouburn areas, to see if i can confirm this. I am going to try and get edward finlay/finley marriage cert. My late mother said they married near Canberra Catholic Church.
Anyway, if anyone can prove Michael parents are not James and Judy i would opened to their finds
Graham

Hi Hraham,
If you have any sources please load them to the profile as the more we can confirm the easier it will be to determine the family connections Bown on Geni.

Sorry fat fingers - that should be Graham

...

Robert Finlay

When Robert arrived in Australia he was single

But we have him as being married 1 month before his trial to Jean Thorburn - Finlay

What evidence connects the Robert FINLAY who was transported with the Robert FINLAY who married?

Karl David Wright rather than continuing to create duplicates of these profiles - could you please show your evidence that shows they are siblings.

Private

Leanne and Karl.
Firstly i am so sorry i changed things on my tree. I thought i could do this , to correct the wrong in my tree. I have no DNA matching on ancestry , gedmatch etc to Karl wright, either does my cousins. My opinion is Karl michael finlay could be another convict or another person. I been doing my family tree for over 30 years and over 10 years on ancestry. I been to Ireland searching michael finlay. I am 50% sure his parents are james and Judy. Hope erica fixed everything in your trees. Leanne thanks again for your help. Karl could you please check your michael finlay against other convict and arrival to australia.
Happy new year Graham

Leanne
There is information that michael finlay was buried in paupers grave in Goulburn.
This to best of my knowledge is not true. Goulburn records of the grave are a mystery, not record of any Michael Finlay buried in queanbeyan/Gouburn areas. No church records in goulburn of michael catholic or any other faith
Only court records of michael finlay in goulburn.
My family all think he was buried on palmer farm just outside queanbeyan.
At this stage its 50%.
I am starting to give up on michael finlay in australia , and follwers my leads of james amd judy finlay/finley in dublin area.
Thanks again Graham

The death record for Rose COURT in 1899 with parents James and Sarah A is NOT Rose the convict

It is Rose A BENNETT who married James E COURT in 1885 in Waterloo.

Here is her death notice
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/14221176?searchTerm=rose...
COURT.—The Friends of Mr. JAMES COURT are
kindly invited to attend the Funeral of his deceased
beloved WIFE, Rose Alice ; to move from her residence,
92 Garden-street, Alexandria, THIS (Tuesday ) MORN-
ING, 8.30, for the Necropolis. REUBEN W. THOMAS,
Undertaker, 44 York-street._Tel., 1734._

Thanks Graham Joseph Austin

I am not finding any evidence that Michael connects as a sibling of Robert or of Rose and Mary.

Michael

  • died in 1844 in Goulburn - but there is no death record for him.
  • we have only 2 records listing an age - and both these have c1793
  • his trial record does not list any family and lists him as a native of Dublin, Ireland

Robert

  • died in 1863 in Wellington - his death record does not list parents
  • we have only 1 record listing an age - and this has born c1804
  • his trial record does not list any family and lists him as a native of Fifeshire, Scotland

Rose and Mary

  • we don't know when either of them died
  • The convict indents tells us that Rose was born c1806 West Indies and Mary was born c1807 Fremanagh, Ireland
  • the convict indent says they were both married, had a surname of McCART's and had 3 sons between them.
  • I haven't been able to find the marriage record for either of them to confirm their maiden names were FINLAY

Leanne,
Your amazing.
Glad you have taken over this.
Ian Finlay lives and breathes Michael Finlay.
He is the one to ask about Michael Finlay.
Thanka again Graham

"I haven't been able to find the marriage record for either of them to confirm their maiden names were FINLAY"

Do you have a RootsIreland.ie subscription? That is where it is. My subscription is expired an it would cost me $40 to get that record in PDF form. That's a lot to ask to prove a point.

'rather than continuing to create duplicates of these profiles - could you please show your evidence that shows they are siblings.'

I am creating PRIVATE profiles where I may accumulate source information and DNA information for my use. I did not think that would be a problem for people but if that is indeed incorrect please let me know.

'That is where it is'

I was able to find a record for a County Monaghan Church of Ireland wedding between Rose Finlay and Owen McCourt, diocese unstated, dated August 3, 1827 . You will see this in her profile. If you absolutely can't bring yourself to consider that record valid please bear in mind that I found the marriage record FIRST and developed Rose's profile from that, and also Owen McCourt, who has a most interesting history as well. This was before I learned that a Rose McCourt had been convicted in County Monaghan, the very place Rose Finlay had married, nearly ten years later. What are the odds of a coincidence?

I corrected your link to Rose Alice Bennett - Court in "Sarah Ann McLain"'s profile and find the evidence compelling. That death record was the only source of the given name of Rose's mother, so I would like to unlock the names in Sarah Ann McLain's profile, because there is no evidence now that that is her mother's given name. (Her father's name is a different story but it's a much longer one, and has to do with Irish naming conventions. Mary Finlay's profile was created based on those conventions BEFORE I was informed that she too had been sent to NSW. It rather vindicated the family structure.)

'Everyone on this Geni say Finlay/finley were not catholic.
My records and my family that are related to Finlays are all catholics'

It is certainly true that Michael and Carolyn were married in a Catholic service. But --- many of their descendants share a >7cM DNA overlap with many Protestants. And this is DNA associated with my Wright line going back through Protestant Ireland and thence into CofE County Durham and thence Staffordshire. You have to ask how that can be if they've been Catholic for all time. SOME ancestor of the Finlay family HAD to be Protestant.

The choices are limited by the dates. Samuel Wright of Ematris was born around 1711, his first wife Mary Armstrong around 1712. His second wife (Dorothy Wright) he married in 1744 - and we have a marriage record from Clogher for that. The DNA overlap of Michael Finlay's descendants includes known Armstrong DNA too, so we're looking for descendants of the first marriage. Known children include Susanna Wright (married first William Madill and second Hugh(?) McDonnell, no Catholics known among descendants); George Wright (my ancestor, married Isabella McKee, only Catholic descendant suspected became Catholic on his second marriage); Elizabeth Wright, married William Carroll in a CofI Clogher Diocese-recorded marriage, but seemingly converted to Catholicism because all their descendants have been Catholic; and Mary Wright, married first James McLain, second William Cameron, and all of their children were Protestant and emigrated to Philadelphia, with only one possibility staying behind. Last choice was Louisa Wright who married John Johnson; their children all emigrated to Philadelphia as well and didn't turn Catholic.

The only Catholics known out of this are the Carrolls. Most of those emigrated to Baltimore.

So you have two possibilities: (a) Michael Finlay is a descendant of the Catholic Carrolls. But then you need to explain the family structure and also the fact that in County Tyrone and Monaghan most of the Finlays were Protestant too. There are Clogher Diocese Finlay marriages in significant numbers. Or (b) Michael Finlay was born Protestant and became Catholic when pursuing marriage with Carolyn McCarthy.

Because of the importance of this question, I asked Ian James Finlay whether any pre-marriage evidence existed that Michael was born Catholic. All he could find was a census record not long before that marriage, which might not have even been the same Michael.

So I'm frankly not finding any evidence Michael Finlay was born Catholic, and finding a fair bit of evidence he came from a Protestant family. And that changes everything, at least to me.

No-one has been detached due to religion.
They have been detached because there is no evidence that they were the children of the proposed parents.

Re “ I am creating PRIVATE profiles where I may accumulate source information and DNA information for my use. I did not think that would be a problem for people but if that is indeed incorrect please let me know.”

If the profiles were born over 150 years ago Geni requires them to be public.

Historical duplicates will end up being merged - causing tree conflicts again

Re “ I was able to find a record for a County Monaghan Church of Ireland wedding between Rose Finlay and Owen McCourt, diocese unstated, dated August 3, 1827 . You will see this in her profile. “

Rose McCourt / McCart

There are 2 documents added to her profile
- a death record that is not hers
- a convict indent

How have you added the source of her marriage? as I am not seeing it

Re “ I corrected your link to Rose Alice (Wood) BENNETT - COURT in "Sarah Ann McLain"'s profile and find the evidence compelling. That death record was the only source of the given name of Rose's mother, so I would like to unlock the names in Sarah Ann McLain's profile, because there is no evidence now that that is her mother's given name. (Her father's name is a different story but it's a much longer one, and has to do with Irish naming conventions. Mary Finlay's profile was created based on those conventions BEFORE I was informed that she too had been sent to NSW. It rather vindicated the family structure.)”

Sorry you lost me here. What changes did you make re Rose Alice Wood?

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