Grand Rabbi Yechezkel Taub, the Kuzimer Rebbe - Consultation re Kuzmir Rebbe Yechezkel Taub's Profile - Help appreciated.

Malka Mysels

Hi Malka,

I am not his descendant, but according to Geni he is the husband of my great cousin (assuming the information is correct)...if you have contact with anyone in the family, I would appreciate it if you could update them and they would contact me

I am attaching the connection between me and him:

https://www.geni.com/path/Haim-WARTSKI-HACOHEN+is+related+to+Grand-...
Many thanks

I'm not sufficiently fluent in Hebrew to be able to read these valuable sources. When were these books written?

Does anybody have sources dating the births of the Kuzmir Rebbe's father Zvi Hirsch? According to my oral family history, Tzvi Hirsch's father Shlomo Zalman was blessed by the Baal Shem Tov, saying he would have four sons like the chayot hakodesh, the holy spirits. He named his sons Tzvi Hirsch, Zev Wolf, Dov Ber and Aryeh Leib, all animal names, which appears to be a pun on the word chayot.

The 1846 death record for Wolf TAUB gives his age as 65, implying a birth in 1778, several years after the birth of his nephew, the Kuzmir Rebbe. Is thisTzvi Hirsch's brother or a different person with the same name?

Malka Mysels

Thank you,
In this branch, the information I have is not much,

After over 1200 ancestors were cut off Because of Huge mistakes made by a Geni user (and this is not the first time he does it) , And the mistakes were not corrected even after I contacted several curators,and his mistake caused enormous damage in my research and set me back at least a year and a half, I decided (with the encouragement of Naftali Wakstein) Conduct research and leave it on my computer and not upload it to Geni,So I am now busy trying to minimize as much as possible the damage caused by that person,...

Regarding your question:
In my very large research, I did not come across his name (except for the connection that I showed through marriage ties), yes there is a connection to hacham Zvi, but as far as I know, I am not his descendant
In addition, I have several great-grandfathers who were followers of Baal Shem Tov,,including
Rabbi David Halpern, A.B.D. Ostrog
who was the great disciple of Baal Shem Tov,

I sincerely hope that mistakes I've made haven't set any people back. I'm actively trying to apply available evidence to fix any remaining mistakes on the Kuzmir tree five to nine generations back from me.

Let me add a correction to my previous post. The battle of Praga was in 1794, and some of the Hebrew sources list the death year of Tzvi Hirsch TAUB as 5564, which corresponds to 1804. I had that backwards. Tzvi Hirsch's death year needs to be recorded as 1794.

Private User

Everything is OK, it's not about you....I wish the person who made the gross mistakes was as decent as you

I checked the relationship between you and me, unfortunately, there is no blood relationship between us, neither to:
Rabbi Yechezkel - Kuzmir - Taub, The Kuzmirer Rebbe

I suggest you check the site

https://tablet.otzar.org/#/

You can use Google Translate

I wish you all the best in your research

Haim, thanks for clearing things up. I agree we are related only indirectly, through marriage. On the Hebrew page Otzar HaChochma, are there any specific books about the TAUB family that you have in mind? My experience with Google Translate is that it has a lot more difficulty with Hebrew than with other languages.

Private User

I checked the website about
Rabbi Yechezkel - Kuzmir - Taub, The Kuzmirer Rebbe
And there is information.
I must point out that without a subscription to the site, you cannot see all the information, and what you can see, you can only see up to page 150 ( I don't have a subscription either, but I try to cross reference information with other websites and sources)

Private User

I thought of something:
There is a rabbinical genealogy Facebook group in Israel, you can join and ask there (also possible in English)...perhaps one of the members of the group will have the information you are looking for

Malka Mysels

Private User

Bella Doron, who established the profile of
Rabbi Yechezkel - Kuzmir - Taub, The Kuzmirer Rebbe
wrote to me that his daughter married to Moshe Wartski, and this is her profile:
Dvorah Wartski, Strykowska/Rychwal)
The name Moshe is a very common name in my family, so I'm sure there is a family connection between her husband and me, but unfortunately, I have no idea how

Since there is a family connection, then I will wrote the following facts: Since all members of the Wartski family are Choanim and the origin of all of us is from the city and the river Warta, I believe that all members of the Wartski Hachoen family have a common ancestor.

In addition, I worked with Naftali Wakstein on this branch for a long time, apparently, the family tree in the earlier generations is as it appears now in Geni

And my great-grandfather (3): Rabbi Zvi Hirsch Wartski Hachoen was born in Warta and from there he moved to Kalisz, and he was the first to bear the surname Wartski.

The dates match, the places too, I would be happy if I could find documents, but because my family had a grave plot in the ancient cemetery in Kalisz and it was completely destroyed by the Nazis, and the Poles claim that the documents were also burned, there is no way to verify or deny the continuation of the family tree

This is the profile of my great grandfather(3):
Rabbi Hersz Zv Katz Wartski, zt"l ( Leader of the Jewish community in Kalish)

Despite all the things I wrote, I don't know how the information I wrote can promote the information you are looking for

Regarding the Wartski Hachoen family, because I am a descendant of the family son after son, believe me I have turned over every stone to find information (and I know very well where and how to look), unfortunately , not the whole picture regarding the family is clear, there are still many pieces missing in the puzzle

I checked 3 Hebrew books:
In נחמד מזהב I did not find genealogical information. The book was not writen by Yechezkel miKuzmir, but brings a collection of his ideas.
Yizkor of Plonsk brings 2 possible birth dates. The first one is immediately denied due to calculations.
the second birth year is: תקל"ד (1774)
Verbally by הרב א.י. ברומברג
Birth place is mentioned as Plonsk, but says there are no sources to that.
Yizkor of קהילת קוזמיר דולני brings a detailed description of the Chasidic disciples visiting their Rabbi all year round. Also there is much detail about the musical side of Yechezkel. It started from his father's home in Raciaz.

I am not happy with:

(3) Drop "Szlamy Hakoba Moshe?" from the name of Tzvi Hersh's father Shlomo-Zalman.
I would suggest Szlamy Hakoba Moshe? will be mentioned in the additional names possibility.

(4) Change the name of Shlomo-Zalman's father from Icek to Jakob.
I would prefer adding the name Jakob? to Icek. like: Jakob? Icek..

Remarks:

Often women went to their mother's home to give birth - if they could afford it.
The distance between Raciaz and Plonsk is about 27 Km.
i.e. Yechezkel's mother could have been from Plonsk.
Needs re-checking in Plonsk.

(1) List Dwora (maiden name unknown) as the mother of Yechezkel TAUB and his sister Feyga. - WHY?

Private User

Can you update us please on what you know about:
Moshe Wartski
and his brother:Avraham

Private User

Can you update us please on what you know about
Hadas Mindel Calek, From Wartski

Thank you both very much

For what it is worth, he is my 3rd great-grandfather:

Gill Andrews Pratt →
Miriam Pratt your mother →
Nechama Katz her mother →
Eliezer-Shlomo Taub of Wolomin-Kuzmir her father →
Frojm אפרים Taub his father →
Grand Rabbi Yechezkel Taub, the Kuzimer Rebbe his father

I trust my cousin Bella Doron-Lask on the Taub lineage. My research these days has mostly been on Nechama Katz ne Taub's husband, Yisrael Katz's father, Yossel Katz:

Gill Andrews Pratt You →
Miriam Pratt your mother →
Yisrael Katz her father →
Yossel Katz his father

Yossel, it turns out, was the main benefactor of the Imrei Emes Avraham Mordechai Alter (Gerrer Rebbe) and hid him at Walicow 10 in Warsaw at the beginning of the war. Amazingly, the building still stands. I'm working on preserving it. Let me know if you are interested.

Gill Pratt

Gill Andrews Pratt

between you and me there is a blood relation, and our common ancestor is:

Hanagid Rabbi Yehuda Leib(Lewek) Bronowski, zt"l(founders of the Jewish community in Lodz,parnas lodz)

Regarding the preservation of the building in Warsaw: The current Gerrer Rebbe and I are cousins (we are both descendants of The Kozker Rebbe), I know that he deals with preservation,Did you contact him?

Gill Andrews Pratt

I continued to check, and between my great-grandmother's first husband (R' Jakub MAJRANTZ)and you There is also a blood relationship, he is your great uncle, which makes their children, my great uncles, and your great cousins
I am attaching the links:
between you and me:

https://www.geni.com/path/Haim-WARTSKI-HACOHEN+is+related+to+Gill-P...

Between you and my great grandmother's first husband:

https://www.geni.com/path/Haim-WARTSKI-HACOHEN+is+related+to+Gill-P...

Cousin Haim !

Wonderful to meet you. Yes - I am working with the Gerrer community, in particular Ruth Lichtenstein, the great grand-daughter of the Imrei Emes and publisher of Hamodia, and several of her colleagues. The current Rebbe is aware of our efforts. Ruth and I traveled to Warsaw and Gur Kalavaria half a year ago. The other important location is in Ludmir (Volodymyr Volynski) in present western Ukraine, where I am working with the author of Jewish Ludmir. That's where Yossel's forest and sawmill was. Please message me and we can exchange emails. Best - Gill

Gill Andrews Pratt

Hi Gill,

I am in contact with Rabbi Yitzchak Broida (The Gerrer Rebbe's personal secretary),

Throughout my research it was clear to me that there was a family connection between my grandfather and grandmother, and every time I am anew impressed by how strongly the family is connected by marriage ties and blood ties from every direction and from every branch...
If you have new information about the family, I would be very happy if you would add it

Gill Andrews Pratt

The discussion that
Malka Mysels
open,Very interesting, because on the one hand, there is no blood relation (as far as I know) between me and
Rabbi Yechezkel - Kuzmir - Taub, The Kuzmirer Rebbe
But, I find out that there is a family connection between his descendants and my family (on both sides - my grandmother and my grandfather)
It is interesting to see what other revelations we will discover here

Let me correct one of my recommendations and comment on another.

Regarding the death date for Tzvi Hirsch TAUB, I got a bit mixed up. Various Hebrew language sources say he died in the Battle of Praga in 5564, which corresponds to 1804. According to Wikipedia, however, the battle occurred in 1794. Some trees show his death in 1794, while others show it as 1804. Based on Wikipedia, I am recommending we universally set the year of his death as 1794.

Regarding changing his wife's name from Chana to Dwora, I was guided by Chana's age, which would be too young to have a child when the Kuzmir Rebbe was born. For documentary evidence, the 1824 marriage record in Lowicz for Haskiel TAUBE and Rayzla Abramowna names his parents as Hersz and Dwoyra.

Dear Haim -

As I expect you know, the amount of endogamy (cousins marrying cousins) in the Askenazi Jewish community was very high, which is why the DNA tests show so many apparent cousins closer than they actually are. See the book "Endogamy: One Family, One People" by Israel Pickholtz https://www.amazon.com/Endogamy-One-Family-People/dp/1680340387 for a great explanation of this.

I think this is especially true in rabinical or near rabinical families. For example, my great uncle Yudel Katz (R' Yehuda Yudel Katz ) married Yocheved Alter, of the Gerrer rabinnical family (Yocheved Rivka Katz ). This was no doubt because Yudel's father Yossel (my great grandfather mentioned before) was so close to the Imrei Emes . I have pictures of Yossel with other members of the Alter family.

As another example, my great aunt Chava Taub married R' Yosef Perlow Admur Novominsk. Alas, both were lost in the Shoah - in his case a few days after liberation, and in her case before.

The Shoah wiped out 90% or more of these connections, including all of those above, but of those that remained there are still many connections.

Extraordinarily, thanks to research here and elsewhere, I recently discovered cousins in Brazil that are descendents of a lost son of Yossel who escaped the Warsaw Ghetto and a Gulag in Siberia. We visited them there and are now closely connected. So Genealogy is not just a hobby of studying people who have passed away !

Gill

Gill Andrews Pratt

Dear Gill

In my family, the number of marriages between cousins and relatives is very difficult to understand, and makes it very difficult to research...everyone is related to everyone

I will give an example:
Three children and grandchildren of my g.grandfather(Wartski), married Three great-grandchildrens of The Kozker Rebbe, as a result, my grandfather's niece, married my grandmother's elder brother... When I was a child and my father told, I didn't really understand, and I thought a brother married a sister...

When you check my family tree You find out that all the branches on my grandmother's and my grandfather's side are related either by blood or by marriage, and all in order to preserve the rabbinic lineage

Hi all,

In private messages the matter of Yechezkel meKuzmir's mother was disected.

No real evidence:
Dvora is mentioned once as the mother.
Chana Reizel seems not to have any written documentation behind her. Information about her comes from other trees, articles, and perhaps family word of mouth, and girls names.

Personally I am for uniting both ladies. But can live happily with any solution that Malka finds.

David Ellis is for separating the ladies (as is now), but connecting Yechezkel and Feiga to Dvora, and the others to Chana-Reizel.

No new evidence was found as yet.

Thanks Gill and Chaim, for trusting my research.
No hard feelings guys. We all have many years of working together behind us.
- research with not enough data is the key idea - unfortunately.

All the best to all.

I think Bella provided a good summary. She and I disagree on whether to regard Chana Rizel and Dwora as the same person or different persons.

My analysis is that Tzvi Hirsch married Dwora first, had children with her, then married Chana Rizel and had children with her. It was not uncommon in my family for men to have children with successive wives. This avoids an inconsistency about Chana Rizel's age in many of the online family trees.

But I agree with Bella on the paucity of documentary evidence. She and I have corresponded for many years, sharing information and helping each other with our research. Recently I have been kicking up some dust, trying to align the various family trees with each other and with available records. I hope collaboration among all of us can help achieve this goal.