Stammoeder & Progenitor (SM/PROG) Sometimes a woman is both Stammoeder & Progenitor. The oldest/most senior mother of her family to arrive in SA, who is also the partner of a Stamvader (SV/PROG)

Started by J P Weyers on Friday, August 27, 2021
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J P Weyers
8/27/2021 at 6:18 AM

Stammoeder & Progenitor (SM/PROG)
Sometimes a woman is both Stammoeder & Progenitor. The oldest/most senior mother of her family to arrive in SA, who is also the partner of a Stamvader (SV/PROG)

J P Weyers
8/27/2021 at 6:19 AM

Krotoa 'Eva' of the Goringhaicona

my 9th grt grandmother .

a SM/Prog ?

8/27/2021 at 7:02 AM

Yes indeed. Although she was indigenous to the region, she was the first mother of Meerhofs born here, which makes Krotoa the Stammoeder/Progenitor of the Meerhof family and all their descendants. One didn't have to be an immigrant to be a SM/Prog, only to be the first to procreate in a brand-new bloodline. Therefore, a wife of a new settler was also so labelled irrespective of her own place of birth.

J P Weyers
8/27/2021 at 8:08 AM

And men?
My 6th grt grandfather.
Van Sitten?

8/27/2021 at 8:47 AM

A man is SV/Prog if he is himself an immigrant and has at least one child born here. The bloodline, according to the De Villiers Numbering System, is calculated based on the father, not the mother. If this settler fails to procreate on local soil, then he is not a SV/Prog.

If, for example, a family who already had children immigrated together, the father would be labelled SV/Prog1, and each male child already born before immigration who then has children born here, would be SV/Prog2, SV/Prog3, etc., numbered sequentially according to their own birth sequence from their father. Once again, if no children of their own were born here, it means no SV/Prog title at all.

J P Weyers
8/27/2021 at 9:29 AM

So even if only an illegitimate daughter a SV/PROG

J P Weyers
8/27/2021 at 9:38 AM

-- or only his name is known from a baptism record , nothing else known about him ?

8/27/2021 at 9:49 AM

Quite a lot of children were born to immigrant parents who were not married, and it was totally the norm for slave-women. Nonetheless, they were immigrant-parents of a child born locally, therefore procreating a new family bloodline in these shores.

Your second question, however, is too generic and vague for me to make a call.

J P Weyers
8/27/2021 at 11:15 AM

Pieter van Sitten ( van Zetten)

Private User
8/27/2021 at 11:01 PM

Regarding Pieter van Sitten

I found the following -

Sitten - place in Germany - see https://www.antiquemaps.com/maps3/germany/

https://www.antiquemaps.com/maps3/germany/

8/27/2021 at 11:24 PM

It is quite possible that Pieter van Sitten was himself an immigrant, but there is just no clear indication on his Geni profile. Therefore, I would personally not award him the SV/Prog title unless some evidence is found that proves it. The Van Sittert family already existed in the Cape at the time with children born here, and it's not clear whether Pieter was perhaps an unlisted child of that family -- it's just speculative (I know), but deserves being viewed as well.

J P Weyers
8/27/2021 at 11:39 PM

Have searched for more info but so far nothing.

J P Weyers
8/27/2021 at 11:49 PM

Sion ,Sedunum or Sitten

J P Weyers
8/27/2021 at 11:50 PM

Thx Herman.

Private User
8/28/2021 at 12:50 AM

Regarding Pieter van Sitten He was very likely an immigrant - will add a Curator note to that effect

J P Weyers
8/28/2021 at 12:59 AM

Thank you June
Determined to find more information about him.

J P Weyers
8/28/2021 at 1:03 AM

Also
Sion ,Sitten ,Sedenum in Switzerland

8/28/2021 at 1:56 AM

In my view applying narrow criteria for SM & SV is not at all helpful, and does not at all reflect the way society has evolved. Of course a locally born woman can be a stammoeder (it simply means progenitrix, ie a founding female ancestor) including if the woman was indigenous ie Krotoa, or an imported enslaved or formerly enslaved woman, ie Angela (var.) van Bengale.

J P Weyers
8/28/2021 at 2:18 AM

Delia -- progenitrix !!
Nowadays even actresses object to being called actress , they all actors these days .
I personally like those but we might get into trouble .

8/28/2021 at 4:07 AM

By this reasoning Phillipp. then we should use SO - ie stamouer and not distinguish between the two.

J P Weyers
8/28/2021 at 4:57 AM

-- and then we accused of ageism again !

8/28/2021 at 7:02 AM

Delia Robertson that sounds like someone, somewhere is going to be offended to think that a baby exits from the actual body of someone with female reproductive parts. I'm all for elimination of gender-based distinctions where the actual sex of the person has no significance, but denying one's physical role in procreating is ridiculous.

J P Weyers
8/29/2021 at 2:21 AM

Just saw a SV/PROG 2
No father and no siblings ?

Van Wijk

Private User
8/29/2021 at 9:51 PM

See the notes in the about and the discussion - Willem van Wijk, SV/PROG 2

J P Weyers
8/29/2021 at 10:12 PM

So any surname first SV then 2nd SV2 and 3rd SV 3 ?
Even if they are not related at all ?
But wih Le Febre surname ?
Weyers surname will go to about SV 7 or SV8 .
3 or 4 part of 1858/ 1860 immigrants.

J P Weyers
8/29/2021 at 10:26 PM

JUNE --Pierre le Fevre/Febre SV/PROG then his son is Gysbert Le Febre SV/Prog 3.
Who is SV/PROG 2 here ?

With Weyers that arrived part of German settlers 1858/1860 : 2 Brothers each with sons not born here ?
Another one with 2 or 3 sons not born here ?
Maybe best I send you their profiles you can see what I am saying.
Or discussion on SV/Prog ?
Maybe first find ans

J P Weyers
8/29/2021 at 10:29 PM

Also other surnames there amongst German settlers like Appel.

8/30/2021 at 1:27 AM

Herman Booysen Gosh, but what a long leap you took there. Because I argue for all founding mothers to be recognised, not just imported settler women, I am now denying women give birth. And using common names also denies that. Blow me down with a feather .... speak about ridiculous.

Private User
8/30/2021 at 1:31 AM

Settlers of the same name would be ranked according to date of arrival.

Pierre le Fèvre, SV/PROG is SV/PROG as he was an immigrant and died in South Africa. His sons are not SV/PROGS as there father was the SV/PROG. Daan Botes can help here! Sharon Doubell I don't think Gysbert should be a PROG. if he was the son of Pierre. However. http://www.e-family.co.za/ffy/g14/p14591.htm do not give a father. If he wasn't related to Pierre he would be a PROG. in his own right, - see also Paul le Febvre, Sr who arrived c1694-1696. See https://www.geni.com/projects/Disentangling-the-le-F%C3%A8vre-Huguenot-families-who-came-to-SA/39490

J P Weyers
8/30/2021 at 1:45 AM

However Weyer or Weyers ?
Michael Weyer SV/Prog 2 was my grt grandfather's cousin his grandson Gustav Weyer went to stay with them 1911,1912 and 1913 in Mystic River ,Connecticut.
Weyer ,Wyer,Weyers even Weihers ,Weyhers used.
So stick to spelling on SA documents and work accordingly.

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