Richard Percy, of Pearse Hall - Richard Percy-linked to the Northumberland Percy family?

Perhaps this help sort it out.

http://www.historyextra.com/feature/tudors/10-things-you-need-know-...

Peterhttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_Percy,_4th_Earl_of_Northumberland Percy is not mentioned at the battle but Henry Percy 4th Earl of Northumberland is. Henry was not able to protect King Richard as he was behind King Richards other troops.

There is a Percival who is mentioned as being a standard bearer to King Richard and my guess is someone just assumed that was Peter but the name is different. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Percival_Thirlwall

I know it's a fact that Peter Percy was not the main standard bearer for King Richard, but that doesn't at all discount the fact he might have played a role in the battle. I wouldn't be surprised if he was a younger son or a bastard of the Percy family who fought in the battle, but the story of his role got muddied over time as the story was passed down over the years. The traditional story is that Peter was the son of Sir Ralph Percy, who was definitely a well-established historical figure. There seems to be enough information to convince me Peter wasn't a totally made up person, but that some details about his life were probably inflated.

Sir Ralph Percy, who is listed as Peter's father, wasn't the most noteworthy member of the Percy family, so I could easily imagine one of his sons (if Peter was his sons) being almost forgotten by history, especially if he were a younger son or bastard.

These people are hopping all over the map. Norfolk, Yorkshire, Bristol - take a good look at a map of England and compute the distances.

If "Pearce Hall" were a real place, you'd expect some reference to it somewhere in a County History or a travel guide, or someplace outside of user-generated genealogies. Nothing.

Brad Verity here smells a bunch of rats: http://newsarch.rootsweb.com/th/read/GEN-MEDIEVAL/2002-08/1028853605

Very good points. Unfortunately, I have run into this situation before with other pedigrees as well, but figured this one was doubtful a long time ago. It's hard to do family research when bogus lines like this show up. Nobody seems to have come out with any new information about this line since Frederick Clifton Pierce's 1888 book came out.

A very junior member of the ducal Percy family *did* have something to do with the early years of the Jamestown colony: https://www.encyclopediavirginia.org/Percy_George_1580-1632_or_1633...

But he went back to England and faded into the woodwork, leaving no American descendants (and probably no English ones either).

There used to be a place called Percy Hall at Spofforth Castle.http://www.english-heritage.org.uk/visit/places/spofforth-castle/ When the castle fell into disrepair, the knowledge of it being the main gathering place of the family became lost in time as well.

There is no reason to call Peter Percy a bastard son, nor any reason to assume the family is not legitimate because they like to travel or move to new countries just like other people. If someone was trying to kill your family off all the time, I imagine you would get fed up and leave the country too.

Wanda, I wasn't saying I thought Peter was a bastard son myself. I was raising it as a possibility, as bastard sons and younger sons are often very hard to find information on. Personally, I find it hard to believe any member of the Percy family would be forgotten by history until a book was written in 1888 by Frederick Clifton Pierce. It also doesn't make sense to me why Peter, a son of a notorious Lancastrian (Sir Ralph Percy) would fight for a Yorkist king. Sure, fathers and sons have even faced each other on the battlefield, but it shouldn't be so difficult to find records of Peter Percy.

I do see your point about Spofforth Castle and it is listed as Peter's birthplace, so maybe there is something there. There's just a lot of gray area and not a lot of verifiable facts after Sir Ralph Percy leaves the picture and the first Pierces come to America after apparently changing their name.

I agree Brent, there is not a lot of information available. Hopefully DNA can help fill in the blanks. After the battle at Howton, when Spofforth castle was attacked and ransacked, it is logical the family might have gone into hiding as did others at the time. If one wants to stay hidden and does it well enough, they may indeed fade into obscurity.

Y-DNA results so far are preliminary and very spotty - lots of Pierces, so many that North and South are separate projects. Not very many Percys, and none (yet) with an official DNA trail to the ducal family.

oops, meant official *paper* trail - but no trail yet either way.

Update: and in any case, it's a question of "*which* Percy family?", as there have been a couple of distaff transmissions - the current "Percies" started out as Smithsons, for instance.

Maven, my understanding is that the DNA results haven't shown a DNA trail between the current Percy family and Pierces in America, but that since the current Percy family started out as Smithsons, that doesn't tell us particularly much. One theory I've seen regarding the DNA results is that since the Percy family has seen a few splits, that could explain why the results are spotty. I'll admit DNA tests aren't my specialty, so correct me if I'm wrong on that.

If I might contribute to this discussion..I have a DNA match with someone on Geni, who has this Percy/Pierce line in their family tree..If correct, it does link up to an earlier line of mine, & would indicate where we might share DNA..However, not being convinced of this Percy/Pierce connection, I looked into his tree to see where else we might connect, & could find nothing..I must state that any British ancestry I have is almost completely Scottish..Though I do have one line of ancestry from Northumberland, that I have not been able to trace further back than 1760-ish..But I would be interested to see how far any connections to the Percy/Pierce family might be confirmed, or rejected.

Thank you, Danielle. I have run into a roadblocks, seeing as how a few of my ancestors are in Frederick Clifton Pierce's probably fabricated line, so it's hard to find the facts. There is a lot of gray area after Sir Ralph Percy, who was a prominent historical figure, until the first Pierces arrived in America (my connection is Thomas Pierce of Charlestown, Mass.) Regrettably, I spent a lot of time believing in Pierce's 1888 book, until I did more research.

I used to consider Thomas Pierce a gateway ancestor, but I definitely can't now, unless new information comes to light.

Brent, Maven and Danielle,

Sometimes the best clues are not in the surnames themselves but in other historical documents. The grey area you speak of is also a time period of war and change. The war of the roses, the towton battle, the gunpowder incident, the second plague, the burning of spofforth castle and other events were happening in a time period that the so called Percy's who changed their name to Pierce occurred.

I think there is one place that should be looked into for research and might hold the best clues in regard to "who if any Percies were still living at or born at Spofforth Castle (which does have two halls btw and shoud be considered Percy Hall, not Pearse Hall).

During the time period that the Percy's left Spofforth and moved to Alnwick, Spofforth Castle was ransacked and burned. That is why people forgot about the great "Hall" at Spofforth where the Magna Carta was said to have been drawn up. After the move to Alnwick, Lord Percy had a great letter writing period with the Plumptons who were stewards of Spofforth after the move. Has anyone thought to look into the Plumpton letters for clues? Has anyone thought to ask why there was such a significant amount of letter writing going on between Percy and Plumpton that the letters themselves became important historical documents? The Percy's held a large number of property and land holdings but none of them stood out as being important enough to require detailed and consistent correspondence.

The other thing to look into is the neighbors. When you have tens of thousands of people coming to kill you and ransack your town your neighbors can become vitally important in ensuring your safety and escape. Nearby Spofforth Castle were the Plumptons and the Markenfields.

This article says Peter died without heirs: http://www.english-heritage.org.uk/visit/places/wharram-percy-deser... It also mentions Spofforth Percies. Who were they?

I still think the best clues to be found are not in Clifton's book but in the Plumpton Letters.
https://archive.org/details/plumptoncorrespo04plumuoft

Wanda, I took a look at the first link. I found it particularly interesting since I did not know much about Spofforth Castle to begin with. However, the Peter Percy mentioned in the first link is a different individual than the one who was supposed to have been born around 1448 and is supposed to be my 14th great grandfather. What I also found interesting is my Peter Percy's birthplace is listed as Spofforth Castle on his Geni profile and the timeframe seems to matchup, as the Percies were still at Spofforth in 1448 (if that birthdate is correct).

My ancestor's profile:
Peter Percy

Pierce isn't known to have been a fraudulent genealogist in the same sense as Gustave Anjou, but his work is definitely sloppy at points and there aren't a lot of sources listed. I have a hard time believing he made up a family line out of thin air, but where did he get his information? Was it from family stories passed down, documents that have been lost, or what?

Brent,
One of the curators who also has a Pierce ancestor said that someone had actually gone in person to Northumberland and spoke directly with the family. I don't recall who it is at the moment. I agree, there are not a lot of sources and there is not a lot of information. My Grandfather purchased a book from yet another Pierce cousin who also wrote some of the family history. I believe there were only a few hundred copies published, sold or distributed. I have one of the copies and had been in touch with one of the descendants of the writer. My Uncle made copies for me and sent in the mail. There may be better sources in this booklet. You can read some of the pages on this website but she has not posted the complete booklet. http://homepages.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~pierces/revised/BOOKS/31_Ge... This book is where I found the last coat of arms. The coat of arms uploaded for Peter Percy may or may not be correct. I believe where they have this confused is that one of the Percy Branches went to Ireland. I do not believe it was Peter. The three wolves used on the coat of arms was used by the Irish branch of Percies and the three ravens was used by the American Percy/Pierces. Both of coat of arms come from an ancient time in the Viking era. I believe the three ravens symbolize the three ravens sent by Floki to find Iceland. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hrafna-Fl%C3%B3ki_Vilger%C3%B0arson I believe Ravens were used again for other invasions. Again, it is not the Clifton book or others one should look to for clues as a single resource. Ravens in general were very specific to Viking culture. The three wolves coat of arms are also Viking. Both Pierce branches use Viking symbolism in their coat of arms. http://www.vikinganswerlady.com/beasts.shtml The number three has important meaning in Norse Viking culture with multiple meanings. Three ravens helped Floki find Iceland and three Wolves come from "The wolf Fenrir was bound by three fetters: Loeding, Drómi, and Gleipnir, of which only the last held him". (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Numbers_in_Norse_mythology)

Wanda, do you remember seeing any other information about that person who went to Northumberland? If the current Percy family did indeed agree to meet with someone about the subject, I think that speaks volumes. I believe FC Pierce might have even met/corresponded with the Duke of Northumberland at the time he wrote his book, based on him thanking the Duke for his help with the research in the beginning of his book. It sounds like the family in Northumberland might be the source for some of this information.

Brent, it may have been FC Pierce but really cannot remember at the moment.

I have studied the Pierce / Percy lineage, in depth. I would love to figure it out.
Notes from History of the state of Rhode Island and Providence Plantations: Biographical NY: The American Historical Society, Inc. 1920
p. 206 - 209:
The Pearse family is both ancient and historic in the annals of England, the lineage of Richard Pearse, the immigrant to New England and founder of the American family, being traced to the time of Galfred. In more recent English generations were Peter Percy, standard bearer of Richard III, at the battle of Bosworth Field (1485), and Richard Percy, the founder of Pearse Hall. For nearly two and a half centuries the Pearse family has been identified with the political, judicial and legislative history of Rhode Island and Bristol.

de Percy, Baron Henry
Percy, Earl Henry
1341 - 1408
Percy, Sir Henry `Harry Hotspur`
1364 - 1443
Percy, Sir Henry
1392 - 1455
Percy, Knight Sir Ralph
1425 - 1464
Percy, Peter
1447 - 1510
Percy of Pearce Hall, Richard Henry
1460 - 1553
Percy of Pearce Hall, Richard
1482 - 1540
Pierce, Constance
1504 - 1600
Holten, Anne
1504 - 1600
Fitz Pen Phippen Thickpenny, Robert
1555 - 1589
Fitzpen, Owen
1582 - 1636
Fitzpen, John
1604 - 1644
Thigpen, Planter James I
1627 - 1679
Thigpen, James II
1644 - 1731
Thigpen, Dr. James III R.
1687 - 1743
Thigpen, Dr. James IV
1710 - 1779
Thigpen, Dr. James V
1743 - 1825
Thigpen, James VI
1775 - 1849
Thigpen, Ben Ashley
1811 - 1880
Thigpen, John Allen
1847 - 1914
Thigpen, Edward Alvin
1893 - 1970
Thigpen, Hubert Harold
b.1935
Thigpen, Barbara Kim
b.1958

However; there seems to be 2 routes on that line. So, I need to know if Richard Percy had 2 daughters; Constance Pierce & Alice Pierce. Alice married Henry Fitzpen Phippen & Constance married Robert Holten Jr.; parents of Anne Holten, who married Sir John Joseph Fitzpen Thickpenny, son of Henry & Alice. Here's the midsection of the 2cd configuration:
Pierce, Alice
1508 - 1579
Fitzpen Thickpenny, Sir John Joseph
1525 - 1583
Fitz Pen Phippen Thickpenny, Robert
1555 - 1589
Fitzpen, Owen
1582 - 1636
Fitzpen, John
1604 - 1644
Thigpen, Planter James I
1627 - 1679

My father's haplogroup is R-M269. That goes straight through to Robert Fitz pen Phippen Thickpenny. [or to Henry]
I have another possible connection through the de Hardy line IF the Hardy line of John connects with Richard / Michael / John of Wetwang. [also a paternal line]
de Percy, Baron Henry
de PERCY, Knight Constable Sir Lord Henry II
1301 - 1352
de PERCY, Isabel
???? - 1368
d` ATON, Catherine
b.1355
de EURE, Sir William
1396 - 1467
EURE, Thomas
1441 - 1475
EURE, William
1469 - 1507
Eure, Elizabeth
1491 - 1545
GRIMSTON, Margaret
1519 - 1587
Newton, John II
1540 - 1587
Newton, Mary Margaret
1555 - 1582
Hardy, Planter Richard I Esquire
1567 - 1645
Hardy, Planter John, Sr
1615 - 1675
Hardy, Lucy
1635 - 1708
Council, Lucy
1676 - 1744
Wooten, Hatter William
1710 - 1792
Wooten, Amos, Sr
1745 - 1811
Wooten, Winifred
1787 - 1865
Cobb, Lucinda
b.1821
Thigpen, John Allen
1847 - 1914
Thigpen, Edward Alvin
1893 - 1970
Thigpen, Hubert Harold
b.1935
Thigpen, Barbara Kim
b.1958

Then; I also have Pierce in my maternal line:
Pierce, Planter Captain William [married planter Joan / Jane Phippen, daughter of Sir Lord William Phippen & Jane Jordaine. Sir Lord William Phippen is son of Sir John Joseph Fitzpen Thickpenny & Anne Holten; daughter of Robert Holten Jr & Constance Pierce. [daughter of Richard Percy of Pearce Hall & Elizabeth} Richard Percy of Pearce Hall is the same person as Richard Pierce Sr, born 1482. So; if Captain of the Guard Lieutenant Governor cape merchant & Commander of Jamestown Island William Pierce of Martin's Hundred at Isle of Wight, Virginia & born in 1560, Heacham, Norfolk, England is also connected to Richard Percy of Pierce Hall aka Richard Pierce Sr [Sr?], then I should go on to figure out if the Nothumberland Percy lineage matches this one. I actually think it may; because their ancient legacy was stripped from them. Knight Sir Ralph Percy married Lady Eleanor Acton. His father, Sir Henry Percy, married Eleanor Neville of Raby~Keverstone, Staindrop, Durham, England. Sir Henry Harry Hotspur Percy married Elizabeth Mortimer. Earl Henry Percy married Margaret Neville; daughter of 2cd Baron Ralph Neville de Raby & Baroness Alice de Audley. { I get Peter Percy confused with Henry Pierce, perhaps } Baron Henry de Percy married Mary Plantagenet. When I say married, I mean produced offspring & usually married.

1560 - 1622
Pierce, Planter Alice Elizabeth
1600 - 1647
Bennett, Richard, Sr
1625 - 1709
Bennett, Richard, Jr
1655 - 1719
Bennett, Ann
1686 - 1727
Bell, John, Jr
1690 - 1746
Bell, Hannah
1721 - 1788
Thompson, Mary Martha
b.1751
Self, Elizabeth
1774 - 1850
Duncan, Nancy
1799 - 1840
Easley, Samuel Franklin
1824 - 1920
Easley, Peter H
1857 - 1921
Easley, Mary Ethel
1891 - 1988
Huskey, Velora Virginia
1912 - 1999
Deason, Barbara Gail
1938 - 1998
Thigpen, Barbara Kim
b.1958

Great tree cousin Barbara :). Thank you so much for posting your tree as you have provided a lot of great clues and new information. I had not heard of the Thigpen's until now. Looking in your first list I noticed a Phippen. Captain William Pierce is also connected to Phippen through his Wife Joan Phippen/Fitzpen Capt. William Pierce, 'the Mariner'

Henry Fitz Pen Phippen/Fitzpen is my 1st C 17xr. You and I also share Jordan, Carpenter and of course the Pierces/Percy's. I hope you will consider adding your autosomal dna to your profile as it will show you who all your cousins are including Pierce cousins. It might help us find older connections to the Percy's as well. Through autosomal matches for my Uncle and myself I have found shared DNA with a descendant of Captain William Pierce, President Franklin Pierce,, Grace Neale, Anthony Pierce, Thomas Pierce and many more. Most of the autosomal matches lead back to shared ancestor Richard Pierce 1565. Other autosomal and pedigree/family tree matches are through the Percy Wives; Acton, Coney, Neville or descendants of the Kildare Percy's via descendants of Juliana Conyers Percy; who still carry autosomal Percy DNA that matches the american Pierces. It would be nice to have more Pierce/Percy DNA matches. It is a problem finding any through the Northumberland branch as they have not had a Percy of the real blood for over 300 yrs. Their last Percy was Elizabeth Seymour of Somerset. It is doubtful they would have any descendants who still carry the autosomal DNA segment of the Percy's but you never know. It depends on whether any of their descendants marry and have children with other Percy descendants which would keep the DNA segment from disintegrating and disappearing forever. I would be happy to collaborate and research with you. Since your Thigpen's are a very nice long line following your Percy's, he odds of Thigpen carrying the autosomal DNA segment of Percy/Pierce are very good.

Barbara, I have good news regarding your Thigpen/Fitzpen's. Using familytreedna.com family finder, I was able to find one DNA match to Thigpen and one match to Fitzpen as follows:

Henry Fitzpen b. 1500 m. to Alice Pierce (same as your tree)
Ann Thigpen b. 1668 m. to Wilson https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Thigpen-19 (in the same tree)

Neither of these matches carry the autosomal DNA segment for Pierce. (it may be too distant or invisible or some other reason. However they do match each other on chromosome 2 sharing a common ancestor.

Fitz was often used to mean "son or daughter of the King" sometimes just son or daughter of.

William Phippen/Fitzpen is Captain William Pierce's Wife's Father.
When you follow Joan Phippen's ancestor's you get this line:
Capt William Pierce
→ Joanne Pierce
his wife → William Phippen/Fitzpen
her father → John Fitzpen Thickpenny
his father → Alice (Peirse) Fitzpen
his mother and following Alice Peirse you arrive at the Percy's for this source, but another source takes you to Pearces in somerset who are not the same Pierces. (https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Pierce-1123) https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Pierce-1123 If that is true, then Captain William Pierce descendants either have a double dip line from the Percy's or they have two Pierce lines who are unrelated. (That actually happens a lot).

A second look at my matches tree for Fitzpen may have found some missing ancestors for you. They have listed as follows:
Henry Fitzpen m. Alice Pierce
John Fitzpen d. 1506 m. Joana Malet d. 1505
Joseph Fizpen d. 1502 m. Alice Belasys d. 1489
Thomas Fizpenne d. 1459 m. Elizabeth St. Albin d. 1456 (The Fitzpenne becomes Fitzpayn then goes on up into the counts of Blois etc. through Cecily de Blois)
John Pen m. Eleanor Tipping

Agnes Fitzpayn would be my Fitzpen and most likely common ancestor DNA match for Fitzpen, Thigpen for the two DNA surname matches on family finder. https://www.geni.com/path/Wanda-D2a1a+is+related+to+John-de-Burgh-o...

Payn Fitzjohn de Burgh is most likely a common ancestor for you and I. Payn fitzJohn, Sheriff of Hereford and Shropshire

Wanda, when you mention autosomal and pedigree/family tree matches, you mentioned names like Acton, Neville, Coney, etc. which are names in my family tree as well...You actually confirmed some of these relationships through DNA?

Brent, it is just autosomal matching by surname, family tree, etc. You can do this too but you need to be a member of familytreedna.com family finder. We all inherit autosomal DNA segments of our ancestors. It is possible to map the surname to the end location number found on the chromosome table and find the family line for that surname no matter how distant so long as there are records to refer to and people to match with who share the common ancestors. You won't inherit all the segments of all your ancestors but you should be able to map out enough to confirm your family line.

My apologies for jumping in late. Does anyone know if the Y DNA haplogroup of the Percy-Pierce line has been established? Is it I1 or R? Thanks.

Richard Percy of Pearce Hall, I have born 1467 and died 1553...wife listed only as Mrs. Richard Percy/Pearce born 1500 and died 1575, in Pearce Hall, Yorkshire, England.

I have that they had a daughter Caroline Pearce born 1520 in Sussex, England, and died 1590 in Sussex, Berkshire, England. Caroline married Sir Thomas La Bunnell (my 12th Great Grandfather) in 1539 or 1540....they had 4 children
Thomas Brunnell II, born 1547,
Abraham Brunnell, born 1542
Daniel Brunnell, born 1544 died - 1603
Benjamin Brunnell, born 1545 died - 1615.

Does anyone else have the same information on Richard Percy of Pearse Hall?

One thing that was going on almost constantly in the late 19th and early 20th century was the "search" for noble/royal ancestors - and all too often, when such were not readily found, links to known nobility were made up out of whole cloth. (And sometimes the fake lineage obliterated the real one so that it could never be found.)

I don't care about Royal/Noble ancestory, I just want to know about my family line, and make sure I have it correct for my kids, grandkids, and great-grandkids, and all the future generations to come.....

Well, Katherine, the 19th/20th century shenanigans are part of what makes the truth so hard to find. In extreme cases the actual line has been completely obliterated by a fake line. :-(