Hungarian first names

Hi Roy,

I thought that "English as a default" was a personal language setting (under My Account - Settings)?

So if you set your preference to Hungarian and the profile had Hungarian language information - it would show you the Hungarian (if the profile had chosen Hungarian as a language) as a default and you could then select English.
My apologies, I would try it myself, except that I would not be able to work out how to turn it back the setting back to English (as I can't read Hungarian), lol.

The name that the person used should be what is entered into Geni - so i would have thought that Jeno would have been used. Using another name that they weren't known by makes no logical sense - It would be like calling me Meadow instead of Leanne (no one would find anything about me).

For myself I have used both English/Hungarian only when I have merged a profile of a wife where one was in English and the other Hungarian and the Hungarian was the husband's name only ie Michaelne Minny for me. I have usually found their birth first name in the suffix field in the Hungarian. Unfortunately Michaelne Minny, Leanne will never find information about me. So I would put Leanne (Owens) Minny in English and leave the Michaelne Minny in the Hungarian so that the Hungarian profile manager could still locate it the way they entered

Being that I only read and write in English I haven't done much in any other language - so someone who works in both might be able to add some extra information.

Leanne

I will be interested in your findings Leanne. My view is that you may find problems.

Talking of problems, merging trees where this happens creates tremendous headaches. I have experienced difficulties where one tree had an individual as Michael and on mine the same guy was listed as Mihaly. Needless to say, it would be inappropriate for me to select Hungarian Default for the presentation is the combined researches of two parties. Under English Default, the newly merged profile on the tree will therefore have my Mihaly shown as Michael, and by letting that name pass without an some adjustment, the revised presentation of my own research becomes unacceptable.

Roy

Was the gentlemen called Micahel or Mihaly or both?
For example I have family who moved countries and anglicised their name so they were both.

If they lived their entire life in Hungary, I would expect that they would only have used the name Mihaly. It would be inappropriate to anglicise their name to Michael.

The only ones I have done it for are the women when they are in Hungarian as Michaelne Minny - in these circumstances I have added, in English, Leanne Minny.

If you want to send me some examples it might be easier.

Fyi, The default is what you see, not what the profile is set to.

The ability for Multiple languages in Name fields - is a recent addition by Geni.
Thus for years, multiple Given names were sometimes added - especially when found in multiple archive records, obituaries, genealogy sites - written in Hungarian, German or other languages.

It will take time, before Given names, Surnames & Displays of such Hungarian profiles - are changed to Multi-language fields and the name order is changed to Surname, Given name.

Hi to all, Private User, Private User, Peter Rohel (c) -
I aslo was write in other discussion topic of this project, but also i saw this what you write, i think and suggest a that names of hungarian people from records what you find in other states in first field English (default) write a name from that country where you found ( see example what i suggest), and add on the other languages and use Aslo as know field too.

I also used and add this in description of profiles of persons in my case from church records like a MKR number - link ( for births), MKV number (for marriage), MKU number - link ( for deaths) link is a from familysearch church records.

Example in my case:

First field
(default) English

Name of person - write here a name person how did you find in the records on english (later then can change on hungarian)
Also as know: - write also that name what you write in default english
Field for more language
Add language - add other language example hungarian, german, croatia. etc..
In this field a write a name how is written on other languages,

Also I suggest in profile of person waht you have on the tree or you researching, add a links from church records how can is better for understand and for check, how can later find a connections and merge a profiles in correct, or change in correct how you want to have if you have a merge a this profile with other person who is from Hungary.

Here i show a example what Ii write up before: Roy in your case about person Michael / Mihaly but in case if i find in Croatia records from Split, then i write in that profile

English (default): Michael
Italian: Michaele or Michal
Hungarian: Mihaly or Mihály
Croatian: Mijo or Mihovil
etc...

But other informations like a same date of births, death and marriages places of the same is helpfull for merges also.

Also how you write a name of person firstly, in field English (default) then that show on the Geni in that profile.. Later in any time can revision, change, add more informations.

Hope you will understand me,

Best regards,

Ozren,
Split, Croatia

Hi Ozren
Thank you for writing. We appreciate this is difficult for you.

Most of us agree that we should put links to original documents into profiles whenever possible, and that it is most important that the names shown in each profile matches the links we provide.

When our researches contradict the researches of others who also have an interest in those same profiles, we hope you will find us happy to enter into friendly discussions so that errors can be corrected and misunderstandings can be amicably adjusted.

Regards Roy

I'm repeating my question from the other discussion thread: has anybody figured out what Geni expects in the various name fields when you switch to Hungarian? The labels don't change, and they almost all use the usual sloppy English positional terms ("first name", "last name"), so I haven't a clue what to enter where. (@Roy C Grant, you seem to have some experience with this; any pointers?)

Julia.
I do believe in sanitizing Hungarian profiles, so married lady's names are not shown as their husband's with 'ne' tacked on the end, and I do feel obliged to ensure that maiden names and married surnames are correctly positioned on the profiles.

As for the profiles themselves, when a Germanic verion of a name appeared, I initially went for a compromise and put the alternative Hungarian name in brackets alongside it. That provoked some rather unpleasant discourse from another Geni subscriber who is predominantly responsible for me starting this string. I then invited to try Geni's alternative language set up which (as you found) is most unsatisfactory. I have now switched to putting inverted commas round the Hungarian first name, and placing it in the box on the profile provided for a second name. AND I will continue doing it that way until the same Geni subscriber raises further unpleasant objections.

Roy

Sorry for a couple of glitches in the last message, it was written with an element of hasty spontaneity.

One thing I forgot to point out on the Hungarian option on Geni profiles was name reversal. It you place no details in the English as default, the profile then shows the Hungarian first name last and last name first. Although correct (for that's the way it's done here) when compared with all the non Hungarian profiles, it can be misleading.

Roy

So sticking with the default (English) name input, because at least there we have a pretty good idea of which field is meant to be which, let's get back to the original question: what language should a person's given name be entered in?

It's not necessarily clear-cut what form of his name a person used, because translating names to fit the context was taken totally for granted. This means that using names straight off the register or other record is unlikely to reflect everyday usage. (Church registers were often in Latin. Did anyone actually ever go by Joannes?) If you happen to have a civil registration entry with a remark stating that the proceedings were translated to German for the non-Hungarian-speaking parties, then you can enter Johann instead of János, but that's not the sort of information you can count on having -- and even then you may get it wrong, because what if he was a Hans?

I suppose we could all go back to Latin; it wouldn't reflect everyday usage, but at least it would be the same for everyone. :-)

Another complication: what if the name on the record could correspond to more than one vernacular form, or vice versa? I'm thinking of name sets like {Albert(us), Adalbert(us), Béla} or {Andreas, András, Endre}. And then there's nicknames. These are especially fun if you have any Jewish ancestors, because they used nicknames in many contexts, and the correspondences are often muddled or non-standard. (Betti = Barbara is my favorite so far; the connecting link is Babette.)

As a matter of general policy, I think it's best to enter names in the language the bearer is most likely to have used, with an AKA only in cases where there are multiple contenders, but it all has to be determined on a case-by-case basis.

Dear Mrs. Private User,I working on other project https://www.geni.com/projects/Military-of-Split-Austria-Hungary-sol..., where in record are written Johannes, Johanes, Joannes and similar. You can saw in this project and links are from records in description of all profile in this project. But in records are handwritng. Maybe this help.
And this names Johannes, Johanes, Joannes from records means on italian Giovanni (males) / Giovanna (females) but on croation language is mean Ivan, Ivo, Ivanko, Janoš few versions (male) / Ivana, Ivanica,Iva, Ivka have couple versions (female) how they are used, so i think Joannes mean on hungarian language: like a John on english, hungarian is János

About Janos name: here afew links maybe could be helpfull for understand
* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Janos
* https://www.behindthename.com/name/ja10nos
* https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/J%C3%A1nos
* http://www.surnamedb.com/Surname/Janos
* https://actacroatica.com/en/name/Jano%C5%A1/
I hope this would be helpful for all.

Regards,
Ozren

Hi Julia.
Hungarians were never very consistent when it came to spelling of names (take the numerous variations of Schwartz, Robitczek and Pollatczek and names with "itz" endings as examples) but I still believe that every effort should be made to keep Geni profiles uncluttered. To that end, the onus is on others that are searching to adopt a flexible 'sound alike' approach to surnames.

With regard to first names, our Hungarian profiles can only show those given to our ancestors as they are recorded in public records, so some also demand the mental agility of the reader. Examples being Terez = Terezia = Rezi, or Rosa = Roza = Rosza = Rozalia, then Betti = Barbara = Borbala = Babette, Unfortunately we were never there to actually hear what parents, siblings and friends favored when referring to an individual so we still only have the written record to go by.

Regrettably, the sound alike approach falls down when you have a seemingly unrelated Germanic equivalent to a name (eg Jeno = Eugen and Ilona = Helena) so once again, our only recourse is to give preference to the version of their names that we have found in Hungarian public records and in order to verify that version of a name, provide references to those records elsewhere in the profile. Whatever that name is (whether Hungarian, Germanic or both) priority should be given to it (or both) on the profile that is initially seen by all other Geni subscribers.

What concerns me is that if I and others were to rigorously stick to strictly putting Hungarian details just into the Hungarian section, it may result in great confusion. I am uncertain of the effectiveness of the Geni search engine under these circumstances, but I have seen that by doing so, the often much lesser used Germanic versions of first names achieve unwarranted priority, or alternatively, the order of the Hungarian first name and surname is reversed and therefore does not conform to the presentation of other information.

I wonder how many Geni subscribers appreciate that having an interest in documenting their own family histories, is not only a fascinating hobby, by doing so, they are also helping create an ancestral archive of some significant magnitude. We therefore owe it to ourselves and others, to ensure that our researches are not only highly accurate, but also well presented.

Regards Roy

>>>>> has anybody figured out what Geni expects in the various name fields when you switch to Hungarian? The labels don't change, and they almost all use the usual sloppy English positional terms ("first name", "last name"), so I haven't a clue what to enter where

Geni Expectations for Hungarian

First Name = keresztnév
Last Name = Férje vezetékneve
Surname = vezetéknév

In your personal options you have a few choices
- language default = English or Hungarian or many others
- How to see names (Do not display birth surnames, birth surnames instead of last name, birth surname inserted before last name OR Birth surname appended) and if you select to see birth surnames (in parentheses, as entered OR in Caps) and where you see these (everywhere OR in tree only)
- you can also select to see the last name in caps.

So depending on how you have set up your personal settings you will see something different from what others may see.

If your personal language default is Hungarian and a profile has been entered with Hungarian language (as opposed to Hungarian characters in English language) it will display the data entered into the Hungarian field AND it will have the Last Name/ Surname first

If your personal language default is English BUT the name only has names entered into Hungarian - you will see it as Last Name/Surname first

If your personal language default is English AND the profile has names entered in both English and Hungarian languages you will see the English data and you will see it as first name first.

>>>>As a matter of general policy, I think it's best to enter names in the language the bearer is most likely to have used, with an AKA only in cases where there are multiple contenders, but it all has to be determined on a case-by-case basis.

For myself, I only read/write/speak English so I would generally enter all my data under English language. I cannot type in Hungarian letters such as n or ö. I can however copy and paste them if they are typed somewhere else. For me entering into Hungarian would be near impossible as I could/would miss the nuances of the language. I have this same issue with Hebrew.

For others, whose first language is Hungarian, I would expect they would have the same issue unless of course they were multi-lingual.

The majority of Geni is entered into the English language - but I think this is because languages are relatively new to Geni.

I think people need to enter profiles into their own language and if they are multi-lingual they could enter into the language the person used.

When I find duplicate profiles - usually one in Hungarian and one in English, I merge them. The only time I have found an issue is with women when the hungarian first name is the husband first name with ne appended and her actual first name is entered in another field such as suffix.

>>>>our only recourse is to give preference to the version of their names that we have found in Hungarian public records and in order to verify that version of a name, provide references to those records elsewhere in the profile

I agree, we should use the names that we can prove - rather than translating them to names that they might have used or the English equivalent of those names.

For example whilst Mihaly might be the equivalent of Michael, we should not enter Michael on the profile unless we know that they were known as Michael. If they were known as Michael, then Mihaly would go into the profile name and Michael would go into the AKA field.

Adding sources to Geni is a very good idea. It adds credibility to the profile.

Re Names,
I always consider 2 things when entering names.
1) what searches/matches will the system do
2) what searches/matches will people look for

For the system searches, Geni checks if records or other Geni profiles exist with the same values in the fields.
For a woman it will check
- first name + birth surname
- first name + last surname
- also known as
So I key into these fields
- first name - Their legal first name on their birth or baptism record
- birth surname - Their legal surname at the time of their birth
- last surname - The name they had at death - which would for Hungary and Australia be their husbands last name
- Also known as - I would enter any other variations of their name
For English - Geni will display anything in english language as first name + last name
For Hungarian - Geni will display anything in Hungarian language as last name + first name

For the Also Known as - I would enter it
English - first name + last name
Hungarian - last name + first name

The issue becomes complicated in that In Hungary a woman is also known as the husbands first name + ne, so she will have potentially have records as
- birth first name + birth surname
- birth first name + married surname
- husbands first name with ne appended + married surname
- birth surname + birth first name
- married surname + birth first name
- married surname + husbands first name with ne appended.

To me, all of the above combinations should go in the AKA field seperated by a comma. Geni will then use them all to search with.

My issue with only entering into Hungarian the husbands first name with ne appended means that the system (and people) will never see or look for her birth name/records so it is information lost.
Some people add her first name into the suffix field but this does not get used for searches and makes no sense to me.

Leanne, I too have issues with people trying to enter women with their Hungarian married names, and yes, it loses information. (Ask me about the funeral notice that listed all the sisters-in-law -- under their married names only. Oy.) My solution is the opposite extreme: don't enter the married name at all, anywhere. Its format is 100% predictable, and all you need is the husband's name to determine it, so you don't lose any information by omitting it. This is true even if you don't know the woman's maiden name, although I suppose in that case some version of the married name is a better placeholder than "unknown".

Julia,
the problem with not entering a woman's married name (in addition to her maiden name) is that you miss all of the records that are might only be under her married name (2nd marriages, death records, holocaust records, census records - are a few that spring to mind).

Geni has 2 fields for surname
- birth surname which used to be called maiden name (but was changed on request from geni users). This is for the name a person was called at birth which would usually be their father's surname but in some cases it will be the mother's surname
- last surname - This would be used for women when they married but also for anyone who changed their surname

Geni automatically searches for records on these surnames (in addition to the first name).

The problem is that the woman's first name is being entered as her husbands first name with a ne appended - this again restricts searches because that name only existed after marriage.

So to get the best out of automated searches we need to ensure that all possible names are entered.
For example Leanne Owens who married Michael Minny would potentially be in records as any of the following
- Leanne Owens
- Leanne Minny
- Michaelne Minny
My suggestion is that these are entered
In ENGLISH
- Leanne in first name
- Owens in birth surname
- Minny in last surname
- Michaelne Minny in AKA
In HUNGARIAN
- Leanne in first name
- Owens in birth surname
- Minny in last surname
- Minny Michaelne in AKA (the only difference from the English)

This would then do all the automated searches needed and give us the best chance of obtaining more information from available records or when someone is searching for a family member.

The problem with entering anything in the married surname field (under whatever label) is that Geni then proceeds to use that surname everywhere as the default, resulting in women displayed under their daughter's or sister-in-law's name instead of their own. (The least it could do is to always start it with "Mrs." when it does that, but that's not how it's set up.)

I don't think you'll miss any records by omitting the married name, because when you actually search for records, you can put it in. (As I said, it's 100% regular and predictable.) For the automatic stuff that Geni does with the trees entered by users, I haven't noticed any lack of matches. (It keeps trying to sell me stuff that I entered on FS.) I would hope that the algorithm for that is not a straight text match -- any web search engine can do that, and more. A genealogy site should look for matches at a database-connections level, meaning it should find a woman married to a man with a matching name, regardless of how the woman's name is entered.

One idea I had but haven't tested is to put the entire married name ("Nagy Mihályné") in the married surname field. I think this would result in a default display of "Borbála Nagy Mihályné", which is neither fish nor fowl in terms of language and conventions, but has the advantage of being a whole lot less confusing than a name that would not have been hers ("Borbála Nagy", the default if you just enter Nagy as her married surname). Another idea is to translate the married name when entering it in English: "Mrs. Mihály Nagy", again entered wholesale in the married name field. As a default display name, "Borbála Mrs. Mihály Nagy" is fairly easy to parse, and technically actually _true_. (If you're going ahead and trying to use the multi-lingual name input, then there's some merit to going all the way with the translation, too: "Barbara Mrs. Michael Nagy".)

I'm still not sure what to do in Hungarian, though; I get myself all twisted in knots over the sloppy terminology.

Hi Julia,

The default for displaying the married name vs birth name is a personal setting that each person can set for themselves.
To change it
- Up on the top right of the screen you will see your name - click on that and it will give you a drop down menu
- click on account settings
- on the right side of the screen under My Account - click on Name Preferences
- In the first box select Birth Surname instead of LastName
- select the radio button "everywhere" rather than "tree only"
- you might also want to select "Ignore display name (except Master Profile)

This will then change how you personally see the names on Geni.

Other users, like myself, want to see both the birth name and the married name so we will select a different option.

The husband's full name does not belong in his wife's last name field, the Mihalyne Nagy / Nagy Mihalyne belongs in the Aka field

Re Matches - it will depend if there are any current records for it to match to.
I changed about 20 names from the ..ne and put the womans first name back into the correct field and every one of them then found a match.
For another 20 changing it found nothing.

One of the options for a married name available in modern-day Hungary is "Nagyné Kis Julianna", which is something like "Mrs. Nagy, Julianna Kis". This is basically a shorthand for the full long-form name of "Nagy Lajosné (született) Kis Julianna", which is Mrs. Lajos Nagy (born) Julianna Kis. Notice how the marital suffix -né goes on the husband's _surname_ when there's only one element of his name included.

This gives me another idea: would it make sense to put the marital marker in the married surname field?

First name Julianna
Birth surname Kis
Last name Nagyné
AKA Nagy Lajosné

First name Leanne
Birth surname Owens
Last name Minnyné
AKA Minny Michaelné

And/or:

First name Julianna
Birth surname Kis
Last name Mrs. Nagy
AKA Mrs. Lajos Nagy

First name Leanne
Birth surname Owens
Last name Mrs. Minny
AKA Mrs. Michael Minny

If we put
First name Leanne
Birth surname Owens
Last name Minnyné
AKA Minny Michaelné

Geni would only be looking for
- Leanne Owens
- Leanne Minnyne (no such records would exist)
- Minny Michaelne
It would not look for
- Leanne Minny
- Michaelne Minny

If we put
First name Leanne
Birth surname Owens
Last name Mrs. Minny
AKA Mrs. Michael Minny
Geni would look for
- Leanne Owens
- Leanne Mrs Minny (no such records would exist)
- Mrs. Michael Minny (no such records would exist)
It would not look for
- Leanne Minny
- Michaelne Minny

So the records would be restricted in both cases.

I have not come across any records that have ne appended to the husbands lastname.

Can anyone add any Hungarian documents / indexes that show the combinations of names so we can all see how they are displayed?

This profile Miksa Székely has several Hungarian documents attached - which have come from MACSE and Family Search

In the MACSE index to his marriage to Hedvig WRZOSOK (https://www.geni.com/documents/view?doc_id=6000000050995352912&) it shows
- his mother's first name as Fani
- his mother's birth surname as Bergler
- his wife's first name as Hedvig
- his wife's birth surname as Wrzosok
- his wife's mothers first name as Karolina
- his wife's mothers birth surname as Mainka

In the Family Search copy of the register (https://www.geni.com/documents/view?doc_id=6000000050995352914&) it shows
- his mother as Bergler Fani
- his wife as Wrzosok Hedvig Terezia
- his wife's mother as Mainka Karolina

This profile has several Hungarian documents attached - which have come from MACSE and Family Search

In the MACSE index to her death https://www.geni.com/documents/view?doc_id=6000000050995152989& it shows
- her first name as Hedvig and her last name as Popper
- her first name as Adolfne and her last name as Grunhut
- her mother's first name as Szidonia and her last name as Popper (which was her mothers maiden name)

In the Family Search copy of the register (https://www.geni.com/documents/view?doc_id=6000000050995152987&) it shows
- her name as Grunhut Adolfne
- her name as Popper Hedvig
- her mother as Popper Szidonia (mothers maiden name)

Sorry profile for the one above is Hedvig Grunhut

This profile Geza Mellinger {infant} has a birth record from JEWISHGEN (https://www.geni.com/documents/view?doc_id=6000000040348584570&)

- her name is MELLINGER, Geza
- her mother is listed as Terez PFEIFER

Private has records from Yad Vashem

https://www.geni.com/documents/view?doc_id=6000000040469239347&

First Name - Ibolyka
Csaladi Neve - Engel (this is her husbands last name)
Leanykori Neve - Trebits (this is her maiden name_

Ribeka Regina Lowenbein

marriage records from Jewishgen - https://www.geni.com/documents/view?doc_id=6000000040645934924&

her mother's name Rosa (WINTER) - maiden name