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Our esteemed ancestor Guillaume Neel SV/PROG

Started by Lee Cahill on Monday, December 3, 2012
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Cuzzins, I'm virtually pop-eyed, having spent the whole day trying to figure out exactly who the parents and grandparents of our esteemed ancestor Giullaume Neel SV/PROG are. When I started doing some research in this area of my own family tree over the weekend, I found they were listed as Pierre Neel (born Rouen) and Judith Gouye.

However, in trawling the Notices Genealogiques Sur Les Familles Genevoises for even earlier ancestors, I came across records that seem to indicate otherwise. As far as I can make out from these records:
* A Pierre Neel (Pierre Neel I) was born in 1567.
* His son (Pierre Neel II) is likely to have been a Pierre Neel born in Grenoble in 1601 and not in 1610 as currently noted. Grenoble is close to Roanne and this may have been confused for Rouen in some family trees. I can't find any records for a Pierre Neel born in 1610.
* Some sources give the names of the children of this Pierre as Pierre (Pierre Neel III?), Marie and Guillaume (Guillaume Neel I or Guillaume Neel the Elder).

This may mean that our ancestor is the son of Guillaume the Elder (Guillaume I) and an Unknown Neel, as records in several family trees indicate that it was Pierre who was married to Judith Gouye, not Guillaume.

Then again, Estienne and Jean (Jan) are shown variously as being the children of either Pierre (i.e. Pierre Neel III) or Guillaume the Elder (Guillaume I).

If some of the existing records are based on other family trees (MyHeritage etc.), errors may have crept in along the way because there were a number of Pierres in different generations. It's also possible that the older Guillaume was omitted by accident, and that some existing family trees have been contracted to show a Pierre as Guillaume SV/PROG's father rather than a Guillaume.

Any thoughts??

P.S. I've done the best I can figure out - have a look and see if it makes sense ...

Thanks for posting, Lee. If you don't get his managers responding here, re-post a Discussion from his profile page - That should alert them.

OK, thanks - will do.

Thank you Lee. I do have sources here somwhere but as I have close to 800 different DN's, wills and other sources it will take time. Again thank you for the big work.

Hi
I also think that there were three Pierre Neel's.Pierre 11 came from Greuville Caux France d 1660, married Anne Mauger 1633, His son also
Pierre b 1637 Netherlands d 1734, married Judith Gouye 18 April 1660,
b 1642 France d 1681 France. Their son Guillaume b 1662 d 17 Jun 1735 Cape married Jeanne de la Batte 3 Mayb1685 b 1663 Loire France'.
The other Pierre Neel was b 9 Dec 1715 Saint Martin-en-Haut , Rhone Alpes France d 22 Jan 1777, married Jeanne Louise Philis 1 JUl 1736 b 14 May 1712 d before Jan 1777. Sources: Morgenthal and Schoeman Geneolagy and GeneaNet.

Caux France b 1610 d 1660

Shew - I love that people are doing this kind of solid research. Keep it up guys :-)

Hi Judith Susanna Hendrika Meyer, Judi - i12j2

Thanks! If you're able to confirm any of the information about the various Neels, that woud be great. And no urgency, of course - it would just be interesting to see if we can confirm records that far back. It's a bit like a missing piece in a jigsaw puzzle, and one just feels compelled to try and track it down! :)

By the way, I'd also be interested to know if you have any information on the difference in the spelling of the surname Nel/Nell.

My grandmother was born Nell, and that spelling also occurs on her father's headstone. However, records of her grandfather in various family trees show both spellings, and they seem to have been used almost interchangeably in the ancestral record. In fact, some members of my own family use 'Nell' while others use 'Nel'!

As far as I can make out, there's no genealogical justification for the spelling 'Nell', but my grandmother was adamant there was a difference between the two spellings, so I'm just curious.

According to her, the Nel/Nell name originated in Scandinavia, which I've been able to confirm from various sources. I presume that the spelling at that stage would have been Nielssen. Viking invaders then apparently took the name to Ireland, where it became O'Niel. Fleeing some kind of persecution in around 1300, apparently members of the (extended) family then went to France, where the surname became Néel.

After the Edict of Nantes was revoked, I understand that French Huguenots were offered refuge in Holland and/or assisted passage to Dutch colonies. It was apparenlty in Holland that the name morphed into Neel. The esteemed Guillaume then apparently dropped the second 'e' after arriving at the Cape of Good Hope and ... voila ... Nel!

Needless to say, my eldest aunt would have me hung, drawn and quartered for even suggesting that 'Nell' apparently has no historical precedent, so if you know anything about this particularly intractable problem, I'd be very keen to know.

Thanks and best,
Lee

Hi Linda,

I'm so excited that you've been able to confirm that there was indeed a Pierre Neel II in the early 1600s - and also that he was married to Anne Mauger (which I've also seen spelt as de Maugère). I'm also very excited that you've been able to confirm that Judith Gouye was married to Pierre Neel III and not our esteemed ancestor Guillaume :).

I need to ponder the rest, though, as I confess I'm still a bit confused as to where the other Pierre fits in. I'll tackle it one morning when I'm fresh!

Thanks again and best,
Lee

Information on the surname 'Nell' from ancestry.com:
Dutch and German: from the personal name Nel, a reduced form of Cornelius.
South German: nickname from Middle High German nelle ‘crown of the head’, perhaps denoting an obstinate person.
English: from the Middle English personal name Nel(le), a variant of Neill.

I just LOVE all you comments. You certainly have to capability of finding amazing information. My husband 's line goes to Guillaume Nel or Neel as it is spelt in the link http://www.e-family.co.za/ffy/g5/p5712.htm So Do you think the information of Guillaum's parents and grand parents is correct? Would love to hear from you. :)

My Daughter found this on Ancestry
http://boards.ancestry.co.uk/surnames.nel/1.7.1/mb.ashx

oo aaaa I am so impressed by all this research going on! we had small a Nel family reunion the other day, and I shall be happy to report. Thank you for all your hard work!

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