Robert III, comte de Wormsgau

From the Foundation for Medieval Genealogy page on Franconia:

http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/FRANCONIA.htm#Robertdied866A

ROBERT [III], son of --- (-before 19 Feb 834). "Karolus…augustus…imperator Romanum…rex Francorum et Langobardorum" issued a judgment by charter dated 8 Mar 812 which names "fidelibus nostri: Gerulfus, Guntlandus, Hedo, Armannus, Hamricus, Sicardus, Rotbertus comitibus…Amalricus comiti palatii nostro"[535]. Graf im Wormsgau. The Commemoratio Missis Data dated 825 [before Nov] names "…in Mogontia…Heistulfus episcopus et Ruodbertus comes…"[536].

m ([808]%29 WILTRUD, daughter of ADRIANUS & his wife Waldrat. "Wialdruth et Guntram" donated property "in Buosinesheim" for the soul of "Rutperti comitis quondam viri mei" by charter dated 19 Feb 834[605]. The primary source which confirms her parentage has not yet been identified. http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/FRANCONIA.htm#Robertdied866A

Robert [III] & his wife had [seven] children:

1. GUNTRAM (-837 or after). "Wialdruth et Guntram" donated property "in Buosinesheim" for the soul of "Rutperti comitis quondam viri mei" by charter dated 19 Feb 834[606]. The document implies, but does not specifically state, that Guntram was the couple's son. Graf im Wormsgau. 837.

2. ROBERT [Rodbert] . Named for the first time in Germany in 836, "son of the late Rodbert Graf von Wormsgau", as the donor of property at Mettenheim[607], although the primary source on which this is based has not yet been identified. Same person as…? ROBERT "le Fort" ([815/20]-killed in battle Brissarthe 2 Jul 866). Robert "the Strong", Margrave of Neustria

3. [ODA . The primary source which confirms her parentage and marriage has not yet been identified.

m WALACHO [Walo] Graf im Wormsgau, son of --- (-before 891).]

4. [ADALELM [I] (-after 6 Mar 870). Regino names "Waltgerius comes, nepos Odonis regis, filius scilicet avunculi eius Adalhelmi in Aquitanien" when recording his battle against "Ramnulfum et fratrem eius Gozbertum et Ebulonem abbatum de sancto Dionysio " in Jul 892[609]. The primary source which confirms that Adalelm [I] was the son of Robert [III] has not yet been identified. If "avunculus" is used in its strict sense in this text, it is possible that Adalelm [I] was a maternal relative of Eudes King of France rather than the brother of Eudes's father. An agreement dated 6 Mar 870 between Charles II "le Chauve" King of the West Franks and his brother Ludwig II "der Deutsche" King of the East Franks names "Ingelramnus comes" as representative of the former and, as present, "Adalelmus comes, Ingelramnus comes, Liutfridus comes, Theodericus comes, item Adalelmus comes"[610].]

m ---. The name of Adalelm's wife is not known. Adalelm [I] & his wife had [two] children.

5. [daughter . The origin of the wife of Megingoz [I] is not known with certainty. She may have been the daughter of Robert [III] Graf im Wormsgau & his wife Wiltrud ---, as indicated by the charter dated 876 under which Graf Megingoz, with his nepos Odo, donated property at Mattenheim. Settipani identifies Odo with the future Eudes King of France[615], suggesting that either Megingoz [I] himself or his wife was closely related to the Rotbertiner family. This hypothesis appears corroborated by Megingoz [II], probable son of Megingoz [I], being described as nepos of King Eudes in 892 by Regino[616]. Jackman suggests that the wife of Megingoz [I] was named ROTLIND, whose name is closely associated with the family in the Memorial book of Remiremont[617]. However, it is also possible that Megingoz's relationship to King Eudes was more remote that "uncle" or that he was a maternal relative of the king.

m MEGINGOZ [I] Graf im Wormsgau, son of [ADALBERT & his wife ] (-after 876). However, it is also possible that Megingoz's relationship to King Eudes was more remote than "uncle" or that he was a maternal relative of the king.]

6. [WILDRUT . Jackman suggests that the wife of Aledram [I] Comte de Troyes was the daughter of Robert [III], the name Wildrut appearing in a Reichenau memorial book[618].

m ALEDRAM [I] Comte [de Troyes], son of ---.]

7. [EUDES (-1 Aug 871). According to Edouard de Saint-Phalle, Eudes was the brother of Robert "le Fort", ancestor of the Capetian dynasty[619], but the primary source on which this is based has not yet been identified. Comte de Châteaudun, later Comte de Troyes. Comte de Blois.]

References:

[603] DD Kar. 1, 216, p. 288.

[604] MGH Capitularia I, 151, p. 308.

[605] Codex Laureshamensis II, 271, p. 49.

[606] Codex Laureshamensis II, 271, p. 49.

[607] Settipani, C. and Kerrebrouck, P. van (1993) La préhistoire des Capétiens 481-987, 1ère partie, Mérovingiens, Carolingiens et Robertiens (Villeneuve d'Ascq), p. 399, which does not cite the source reference.

[608] Karoli II Conventus Silvacensis, Missi…et pagi… 8, MGH LL 1, p. 426.

[609] Reginonis Chronicon 892, MGH SS I, p. 604.

[610] Hludowici Germ. et Karoli II Pacto, Aquensis, MGH LL 1, p. 516.

[611] Hludowici Germ. et Karoli II Pacto, Aquensis, MGH LL 1, p. 516.

[612] Karoli II Imp. Conventus Carisiacensis, MGH LL 1, p. 537.

[613] Abbonis Bella Parisiacæ Urbis I, MGH Poetæ Latini ævi Carolini IV.I, p. 92.

[614] Reginonis Chronicon 892, MGH SS I, p. 604.

[615] Settipani (1993), p. 402.

[616] Reginonis Chronicon 892, MGH SS I, p. 604.

[617] Jackman, D. C. (1997) Criticism and Critique, sidelights on the Konradiner (Oxford Unit for Prosopographical Research), p. 40.

[618] Jackman (1997), p. 123.

[619] Saint-Phale, E. de 'Comtes de Troyes et de Poitiers au IX siècle, histoire d'un double échec', Keats-Rohan, K. S. B. and Settipani, C. (eds.) (2000) Onomastique et Parenté dans l'Occident medieval (Prosopographica et Genealogica, Vol. 3), p. 156, citing Merlet, R. 'Les comtes de Chartres, de Blois, et de Châteaudun aux 9e et 10e siècles', Mémoires de la Société archéologique d'Eure et Loir, XII (1895/1900), pp. 64-7.

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Occupation: Marquis of Neustria

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From the English Wikipedia page on Robert of Worms:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_of_Worms

Robert III (800-822) was the Count of Worms and Rheingau of the illustrious Frankish family called the Robertians. He was the son of Robert of Hesbaye, II. Count of Worms

His son was Robert the Strong. His niece was Ermengard, wife of the Frankish emperor Louis the Pious. A nephew was Chrodogang, Archbishop of Metz and abbot of the Lorsch Abbey. An uncle of Robert is Count Cancor, founder of the Lorsch Abbey. Via Robert the Strong he was grandfather of two kings of Western Francia named Odo and Robert. He was the great-great-grandfather of Hugo Capet, the founder of the Capetian dynasty that ruled France until the French Revolution.

References

Riché, Pierre. The Carolingians, a family that Forged Europe.

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The link between Robert III de Hesbaye and Robert Le Fort is highly likely, but unproven. From the French Wikipedia page on Robert III de Hesbaye:

http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_III_de_Hesbaye

Robert III de Hesbaye[1], est un noble franc de la famille des Robertiens. Fils de Robert II de Hesbaye, il est attesté comme comte de Worms et d'Oberrheingau en 812-816. Il épousa Waldrade[2], fille du comte Adrien d'Orléans, nièce d'Hildegarde, femme de Charlemagne, sœur d'Eudes d'Orléans et tante d'Ermentrude d'Orléans, femme de Charles II le Chauve.

De ce mariage, ils eurent[3] :

quasi-certainement Robert le Fort († 866), marquis de Neustrie.

probablement Eudes († 871), comte de Troyes.

probablement Adalhelm, comte de Laon, conseiller de Louis II le bègue en 877 et père de Gautier, comte de Laon exécuté en 892.

Il mourut avant 834[4]. Son fils Robert le Fort hérita de ses comtés en 836[5].

Notes et références

1.↑ Sa généalogie sur le site Medieval Lands

2.↑ Pierre Riché, Les Carolingiens, une famille qui fit l'Europe, Hachette, coll. « Pluriel », Paris, 1983 (réimpr. 1997), 490 p. (ISBN 2-01-278851-3)

3.↑ Christian Settipani, Les ancêtres de Charlemagne, addenda, 1990 et 2000

4.↑ Karl Ferdinand Werner, Les premiers Robertiens et les premiers Anjou (IXe siècle - Xe siècle), in : Mémoires de la Société des Antiquaires de l’Ouest, 1997.

5.↑ Hélène Noizet, L’ascension du lignage robertien : du val de Loire à la Francie, Annuaire-Bulletin de la société de l’histoire de France (année 2004), 2006, p. 19-35.

In English:

Robert III de Hesbaye is a Frankish noble from the Robertian family. Son of Robert II de Hesbaye, he is certified as the Count of Worms and Oberrheingau between 812 and 816. He married Waldrada, daughter of Comte Adrian d'Orleans, niece of Hildegarde, wife of Charlemagne, sister of Eudes of Orleans, and aunt of Ermentrude de Orleans, wife of Charles the Bald.

From this marriage, they had:

1. Almost certainly Robert Le Fort (d. 866), Margrave of Neustria.

2. Probably Odo (d. 871) Comte de Troyes.

3. Probably Adalhelm, Comte de Laon, counsel to Louis II the Stammerer in 877 and father of Gautier, Comte de Laon, executed in 892.

He died before 834. His son, Robert Le Fort, inherited his counties in 836.

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Additionally, the German Wikipedia page exists for Robert (or Rutpert) III de Oberrheingau:

http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rutpert_III._(Oberrheingau)

Rutpert III., auch als Robert III. bekannt (* wohl um 781; † vor 834), aus dem Geschlecht der Rupertiner war Graf im Oberrheingau und im Wormsgau und Vogt des Klosters Hornbach.

Leben

Rutpert war Sohn des gleichnamigen Grafen Rutpert II. (Hruodbertus) († 807) und folgte diesem als Graf im Worms- und im Oberrheingau; als solcher ist er erstmal 812 am Pfalzgericht zu Aachen bekundet. Rutpert stand bei Kaiser Ludwig dem Frommen in hohem Ansehen und wurde von diesem im Jahre 825, zusammen mit dem Mainzer Erzbischof Haistulph, zum Königsboten im Sprengel Mainz ernannt.

Er heiratete um 808 Wiltrud von Orléans (auch Wialdruth, Wialdrudt, Waldrada). Als Erbtochter des Grafen Hadrian von Orléans († 822) und dessen Frau Waldrat aus dem Geschlecht der Widonen erbte sie wertvollen Besitz in Orléans, der ab 840 ihrem Sohn Robert dem Tapferen als Basis seines Aufstiegs im Westfränkischen Reich diente.

Rutpert starb spätestens 834; in diesem Jahr ist eine zu seinem Seelenheil gemachte gemeinsame Schenkung seiner Witwe und seines Sohnes Guntram an die Abtei Lorsch beurkundet.

Nachkommen

Rutpert und Wiltrud (* um 785) hatten folgende Kinder:

1. Oda heiratete Walaho IV., der nach 840 Graf im Wormsgau wurde; die beiden wurden vermutlich die Stammeltern der Salier.

2. Guntram (815-837) war 834-837 Graf im Wormsgau

3. Eine Tochter unbekannten Namens heiratete Megingoz I., der 876 als Graf im Wormsgau bezeugt ist

4. Robert der Tapfere († 866), dessen Söhne Odo und Robert Könige des Westfrankenreichs wurden.

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In English:

Robert III (c. 781 to before 834), from the Robertian House, was Graf im Oberrheingau und im Wormsgau, and Bailiff (Vogt) of Klosters Hornbach.

Life

Robert of Worms was the son of Graf Rutpert (or Robert) II (Hruodbertus) d. 807, and later became the Count of Worms and Oberrheingau. King Louis the Pious held him in high esteem, and from 825, together with Archbishop of Mainz Haistulph, he was appointed as a Royal Envoy in Spengel Mainz.

In 808, he married Wiltrud von Orleans (also Wialdruth, Wialdrudt, Waldrada). As heiress of Earl Hadrian of Orleans (d. 822) and his wife Waldrat from the House of Widonen, they inherited valuable property in Orleans, which after 840 provided her son Robert Le Fort the basis for his rise in the Western Francia kingdom.

Robert of Worms died later than 834. During this year, a gift was made for his salvation by his widow and his son Guntram to the Lorsch Abbey.

Progeny:

Robert and Wiltrud of Worms (c. 785) had the following children:

1. Oda, who married Walaho IV, who after 840 became the Count in Wormsgau; the two were probably ancestors of the Salian.

2. Guntram (815-837) was 834-837 the Graf im Wormsgau.

3. An unknown daughter who married Megingoz I, who testified as a Graf im Wormsgau in 876.

4. Robert Le Fort (d. 866), whos sons Odo and Robert became kings of Western Francia.

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From the Foundation for Medieval Genealogy page on France Capetian Kings, regarding Robert III's proposed son Robert Le Fort:

http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/CAPET.htm#RobertIdied923

ROBERT "le Fort" (-killed in battle Brissarthe 2 Jul 866).

The parentage of Robert "le Fort" is unknown. Some general indications of his origins are found in contemporary sources, but these are contradictory.

An unspecific Franconian origin is favoured by the Annales Xantenses which name him “Ruodbertus…ortus de Francia, dux Karoli” when recording his death[3], and by Widukind who refers to his son King Eudes as “ex orientalibus Francia”[4].

A Saxon origin is suggested by two sources: firstly, Richer names “ex equestre ordine Rotbertum” as father of King Eudes and his “avum…paternum Witichinum advenam Germanum”[5]; secondly, the Miracula Sancti Benedicti names “Robertus, Andagavensis comes, Saxonici generis vir”[6]. Three more specific suggestions can be made:

Firstly, many modern secondary sources identify him as Robert [Rodbert], son of Rodbert Graf im Wormsgau & his wife Wiltrud --- ([815/20]-), who was first named in Germany in 836 as "son of the late Rodbert Graf von Wormsgau", in a donation to Mettenheim[7].

No primary source has yet been found which points specifically towards this suggested co-identity, although it is consistent with the Franconian origin referred to by the Annales Xantenses and by Widukind, noted above. It is assumed that the suggestion is based primarily on onomastics, although the first secondary source which proposed the connection has not yet been identified and therefore has not been not checked. The author in question may also have assumed that Robert was a unique name among noblemen in France in the first half of the 9th century, although this ignores Robert Seigneur [comte] à Sesseau en Berry, who was the possible brother of the wife of Pepin I King of Aquitaine.

The timing of the supposed arrival of Robert from Franconia, assuming that the co-identity is correct, is not ideal either. Robert would presumably have fled Germany after opting to support Charles II “le Chauve” King of the West Franks in the latter´s fight against his brother Ludwig II "der Deutsche” King of the East Franks. This dispute is dated to 858/59: King Ludwig invaded in Aug 858, when King Charles was faced with widespread rebellion, and was defeated in Jan 859. However, Robert "le Fort" is already named as missus in Maine, Anjou and Touraine in Nov 853, in a document issued by King Charles II[8] (unless of course this document refers to Robert Seigneur [comte] à Sesseau, which is not impossible).

Secondly, there is a possible connection between Robert "le Fort" and the family of Aledramn [I] Comte de Troyes, who died in [852]. Such indications are provided by Regino who names "Waltgerius comes, nepos Odonis regis, filius scilicet avunculi eius Adalhelmi in Aquitanien" when recording his battle against "Ramnulfum et fratrem eius Gozbertum et Ebulonem abbatum de sancto Dionysio " in Jul 892, and names "Megingaudus comes, nepos supradicti Odonis regis [son of Robert "le Fort"]" when recording his death, also in 892[9]. A further indication is found in the charter dated 14 Sep 937, under which Robert "le Fort"´s grandson "Hugues abbé de Saint-Martin" donated "son alleu de Lachy…dans le comté de Meaux" to Tours Saint-Martin, specifying that he had inherited the property from "comte Aledramnus" who had been granted it by Charlemagne[10].

It should be noted, however, that all these sources would be consistent with the family connection between Robert "le Fort" and Adalhelm being through the female line, even through Robert´s wife.

Thirdly, an interesting possibility is indicated by Europäische Stammtafeln[11], which names the first wife of Comte Robert as "[Agane]". It cites no corresponding primary source, but presumably the suggestion is based on the Miraculis Sancti Genulfi which names "Agana filia…Byturicensium comes…Wifredus [et]…Oda coniux" as wife of "Roberto viro primoque palatii Pipini regis"[12].

This "Roberto" can probably be identified as Robert Seigneur [comte] à Sesseau en Berry, the supposed brother of the wife of Pepin I King of Aquitaine (this relationship is referred to by Settipani, but he neither quotes nor cites the corresponding source[13]). Could it be possible therefore that he was the same person as Robert "le Fort"?

If this was correct, it would be consistent with the Saxon origin which is suggested by Richer and by the Miracula Sancti Benedicti (see above). The supposed father of Robert de Sesseau was Theodebert Comte de Madrie who, it is suspected, was related to the family of Nibelung and Childebrand. The Saxon connection of the latter family is suggested by the name Theoderic (nine different individuals named Theoderic have been identified in the family), which was first recorded in Saxony in the family of Widukind by Einhard in 782.

References:

[3] Annales Xantenses 867, MGH SS II, p. 232.

[4] Widukind I, 29, MGH SS III, p. 430.

[5] Richeri Historia I, 5, MGH SS III, p. 570.

[6] Certain, E. de (ed.) (1858) Miracula Sancti Benedicti (Paris) II, p. 93.

[7] Settipani, C. and Kerrebrouck, P. van (1993) La préhistoire des Capétiens 481-987, 1ère partie, Mérovingiens, Carolingiens et Robertiens (Villeneuve d'Ascq), p. 399, which does not cite the source reference.

[8] Karoli II Conventus Silvacensis, Missi…et pagi… 8, MGH LL 1, p. 426.

[9] Reginonis Chronicon 892, MGH SS I, pp. 604 and 605.

[10] Mabille, E. (ed.) (1866) La pancarte notre de Saint-Martin de Tours brulée en 1793 (Paris, Tours) ("Tours Saint-Martin") LVIII, p. 95.

[11] ES II 10.

[12] Miraculis Sancti Genulfi 6, MGH SS XV.2, p. 1206.

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From the English Wikipedia page on Wormsgau:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wormsgau

The Wormsgau or pago wormatiensi was in the Middle Ages a county, which extended itself not only in the surroundings of the city of Worms, Germany, but concurrently along the Rhine widely in northern direction until short of reaching Coblenz. The city of Mainz belonged likewise to it as to the start of the 9th century also Boppard, which in reality ca. 825 was already lost again. In the 10th century the Wormsgau lost wide middlerhenish zones...

2nd Robertian Count in Wormsgau (Robert's father):

Robert II (Rutbert II o. Hruodbertus) (770 attested, † 12 July 807), his grandson, 795/807 Count in Worms- and Oberrheingau, 795 Lord to Dienheim, ∞ I Theoderata (Tiedrada) (766/777 attested, † before 789), ∞ II Isengarde, 789

3rd Robertian Count in Wormsgau:

Robert III (Rutpert III) († before 834) his son, 812/830 Count in Wormsgau, Count in Oberrheingau, 825 imperial missus in Bishopric of Mainz, ∞ ca. 808 Wiltrud (Waldrada) of Orléans, 829/834 heiress of possessions in Orléans, daughter of Count Hadrian and of Waldrat from the House of the Widonen

4th Robertian Count in Wormsgau:

Guntram, his son, Count in Wormsgau 815/837

Reference:

(German) Geschichtlicher Atlas der Rheinlande, 7. Lieferung, IV9: Die mittelalterlichen Gaue, 2000, 1 Kartenblatt, 1 Beiheft, bearbeitet von Thomas Bauer, ISBN 3-7927-1818-9

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http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rutpert_III._%28Oberrheingau%29

Rutpert III. (Oberrheingau)

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Rutpert III., auch als Robert III. bekannt (* wohl um 781; † vor 834), aus dem Geschlecht der Rupertiner war Graf im Oberrheingau und im Wormsgau und Vogt des Klosters Hornbach.

Inhaltsverzeichnis

[Anzeigen]

   * 1 Leben

* 2 Nachkommen
* 3 Siehe auch
* 4 Weblinks
Leben [Bearbeiten]

Rutpert war Sohn des gleichnamigen Grafen Rutpert II. (Hruodbertus) († 807) und folgte diesem als Graf im Worms- und im Oberrheingau; als solcher ist er erstmal 812 am Pfalzgericht zu Aachen bekundet. Rutpert stand bei Kaiser Ludwig dem Frommen in hohem Ansehen und wurde von diesem im Jahre 825, zusammen mit dem Mainzer Erzbischof Haistulph, zum Königsboten im Sprengel Mainz ernannt.

Er heiratete um 808 Wiltrud von Orléans (auch Wialdruth, Wialdrudt, Waldrada). Als Erbtochter des Grafen Hadrian von Orléans († 822) und dessen Frau Waldrat aus dem Geschlecht der Widonen erbte sie wertvollen Besitz in Orléans, der ab 840 ihrem Sohn Robert dem Tapferen als Basis seines Aufstiegs im Westfränkischen Reich diente.

Rutpert starb spätestens 834; in diesem Jahr ist eine zu seinem Seelenheil gemachte gemeinsame Schenkung seiner Witwe und seines Sohnes Guntram an die Abtei Lorsch beurkundet.

Nachkommen [Bearbeiten]

Rutpert und Wiltrud (* um 785) hatten folgende Kinder:

   * Oda heiratete Walaho IV., der nach 840 Graf im Wormsgau wurde; die beiden wurden vermutlich die Stammeltern der Salier.

* Guntram (815-837) war 834-837 Graf im Wormsgau
* Eine Tochter unbekannten Namens heiratete Megingoz I., der 876 als Graf im Wormsgau bezeugt ist
* Robert der Tapfere († 866), dessen Söhne Odo und Robert Könige des Westfrankenreichs wurden.
Siehe auch [Bearbeiten]

   * Liste der Herrscher namens Robert

Weblinks [Bearbeiten]

   * Robert III., Graf im Oberrheingau, bei Genealogie Mittelalter

* Guntram, Graf im Oberrheingau, bei Genealogie Mittelalter
Diese Seite wurde zuletzt am 24. April 2010 um 18:13 Uhr geändert.

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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_III_of_Worms

Robert III of Worms

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

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Rutpert (Robert) III (800–834) was the Count of Worms and Rheingau of the illustrious Frankish family called the Robertians. He was the son of Robert of Hesbaye.

By his wife Waldrada of Worms he had his only recorded son Robert the Strong. His niece was Ermengard, wife of the Frankish emperor Louis the Pious. His cousin Chrodogang was Archbishop of Metz and abbot of the Lorsch Abbey. An uncle of Robert was Count Cancor, founder of the Lorsch Abbey. Via Robert the Strong he was grandfather of two kings of Western Francia named Odo and Robert. He was the great-great-grandfather of Hugo Capet, the founder of the Capetian dynasty that ruled France until the French Revolution.

[edit] References

   * Riché, Pierre. The Carolingians, a family that Forged Europe.

This page was last modified on 23 September 2010 at 13:05.

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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_of_Worms

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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_of_Worms

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From the illustrious Frankish family called the Robertians.

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From http://www.rpi.edu/~holmes/Hobbies/Genealogy/ps04/ps04_354.htm

Rutpert III m. (her 2nd) Wiadruth {parents unknown, but see "Ancestral Roots..." (Balt., 1992) 48-17 for speculation}. Ruthpert III is known to history in 812-25 and d. ca. 834.

References: [AR7]

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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_of_Worms

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Robert III (800-822) was the Count of Worms and Rheingau of the illustrious Frankish family called the Robertians. He was the son of Robert of Hesbaye.

His son was Robert the Strong. His niece was Ermengard, wife of the Frankish emperor Louis the Pious. A nephew was Chrodogang, Archbishop of Metz and abbot of the Lorsch Abbey. An uncle of Robert is Count Cancor, founder of the Lorsch Abbey. Via Robert the Strong he was grandfather of two kings of Western Francia named Odo and Robert. He was the great-grandfather of Hugo Capet, the founder of the Capetian dynasty that ruled France until the French Revolution.

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Robert III de Oberrheingau (ou de Hesbaye, em Francês), Conde de Worms e Oberrheingau (ou Wormsgau, em alemão). Foi senhor de Wormsgau, igualmente desingado como "pago wormatiensi" que foi na Idade Média um condado que se estendeu dos arredores da cidade de Worms, na Alemanha, e ao longo do rio Reno, na direcção norte até de alcançar Coblenz. A cidade de Mainz pertencia-lhe, assim como a de Boppard, perdida em, 825. No século X o condado de Wormsgau perdeu largas zonas na middlerhenish, principalmente para o condado de Nahegau. Assim a cidade de Ingelheim, em 937, Spiesheim 960, 973 e Saulheim Flonheim 996, até ao rio Selz. Depois desta redução de áreas, o condado de Wormsgau define o seu limite norte.

O condado de Wormsgau estava entre os bens centrais da dinastia Salian.

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Dates match - a play on names

http://sbaldw.home.mindspring.com/hproject/prov/rober100.htm

Robert "le Fort" (Rotbertus Fortis, Robert "the Strong")..........

Probable father: Robert, d. before 19 February 834, count in Wormsgau.

Probable mother: Waldrade (Wialdrut), living 19 February 834.

Robert was deceased by 19 February 834, when his widow Waldrade and a certain Guntram gave land in Bönsheim in Rheingau for his soul to the monastery in Lorsch ["Ego in Dei nomine Wialdrud & Guntram pariter mecum pro remedio animæ nostræ & pro anima Ruperti comitis, quondam viri mei, ... Signum Wialdrut, quæ hanc donationem fecit, ..." Codex Lauresh., 1: 350 (#271)].
He was evidently the count Robert whose son Robert donated two manses in Mettenheim in 8367 [Codex Lauresh., 2: 306-7 (#1826), see above].

Attempts at further identification of this Robert suffer from the possibility of confusing different men with the same name. On 8 March 812, a count Rotbertus appears with several other counts in a court record of Charlemagne [MGH DD KdG, 289 (#216)].

After 816, at the request of archbishop Ebbo of Reims, a count Robert was ordered by emperor Louis to defend the property of the church ["Ab imperatore quoque Ludowico litteras ad Rotbertum comitem pro ecclesiasticarum rerum defensione, quas quidam pervadere moliebantur, impetravit." Flodoard, Historia Remensis ecclesiae, ii, 19, MGH SS 13: 467].

A count Robert appears as a witness on 29 May 817 (or 819) ["+ Ruadperahti comitis" Codex Fuld., 175 (#387)]. In 819 and 823, a count Robert appears appears in the record of restitution of lands to the monastery of Hornbach [Gl%C3%B6ckner (1936), 306, citing Zeuß, Trad. Wizenburg. #69].

In a capitulary of emperor Louis the Pious in 825, a count Robert appears with archbishop Haistulf as a missus in the diocese of Mainz ["In Mogontia, quae est diocesis Heistulfi archiepiscopi, idem Heistulfus episcopus et Ruodbertus comes." MGH Leg. 1: 246]. 

Glöckner would identify all of these with the Robert of 19 February 834 (whom he would call Robert "III"), mentioning doubt only in the case of the capitulary [Gl%C3%B6ckner (1936), 305-6].

Siegwart would also identify Robert with a vassal of emperor Louis the Pious ("Ruodpertus quidam nomine, Ludowici imperatoris vassallus") who briefly held Churrätien against Adalbert, son of Hunfrid, and was killed as a result [Translatio sanguinis Domini, c. 15, MGH SS 4: 448; Siegwart (1958), 180-3].

The cartulary of Lorsch shows a count Robert in Wormsgau on 12 June 795 ["... ego Rubertus comes ...", Codex Lauresh., 2: 236 (#1541)] and in Rheingau on 25 March 804 ["... signum Rutperti comitis, ..." ibid., 1: 318 (#222)] and on 20 February 807 ["... signum Rutperti comitis..." ibid., 1: 319 (#224)].

Glöckner would identify him as Robert "II" and make him the father of Robert "III" (with no direct evidence for the affiliation). This Robert "II" would then be identified by Glöckner as "probably" the same as the Robert son of Turimbert who appears in the Lorsch cartulary in 769770 ["... ego Turinebertus, & filius meus Ruotpertus, ..." ibid., 1: 285 (#168)]. Although Turimbert does not have a title in the documents in which he appears, and Robert son of Turimbert also appears without a title, Turincbert was the son of a count Robert "I", whose son Cancor and widow Williswinte founded Lorsch in 764 [see Glöckner (1936), 303-5; Codex Lauresh., 1: 2], which is why  Glöckner would identify Turimbert's son as Robert "II" [Gl%C3%B6ckner (1936), 305]. On the other hand, Siegwart does not accept the identification of Robert "II" with Robert son of Turimbert, and instead makes Robert "II" the son of a Robert "I" (different from the Robert "I" of Glöckner), son of count Hnabi who was the maternal grandfather of Hildegard, wife of Charlemagne [Siegwart (1958), 157].

Chaume regarded the Robert "II" and "III" of Glöckner as a single count Robert of Rheingau (fl. 795-834, whose son Robert, fl. 836-7, he regarded as distinct from Robert le Fort), in turn a conjectured son of count Heimrich, son of count Cancor, son of count Robert and Williswinte [Chaume (1925), 537 (table #5)].
While onomastics and geography present us with a plausible enough case that Robert (husband of Waldrade) was of the same family as the earlier Robert (husband of Williswinte), there does not appear to be any solid evidence for the parentage of Waldrade's husband.............

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Leo: Europäische Stammtafeln, Band II, Frank Baron Freytag von Loringhoven, 1975, Isenburg, W. K. Prinz von, Reference: page 13.

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Robertians. He was the son of Robert of Hesbaye.

By his wife Waldrada of Worms he had his only recorded son Robert the Strong. His niece was Ermengard, wife of the Frankish emperor Louis the Pious. His cousin Chrodogang was Archbishop of Metz and abbot of the Lorsch Abbey. An uncle of Robert was Count Cancor, founder of the Lorsch Abbey. Via Robert the Strong he was grandfather of two kings of Western Francia named Odo and Robert. He was the great-great-grandfather of Hugo Capet, the founder of the Capetian dynasty that ruled France until the French Revolution in 1792, and then again from 1814 until 1848 with the exception of the Hundred Days in 1815.

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Robert III de Hesbaye, comte de Worms et d'Oberrheingau

http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_III_de_Hesbaye

Robert III de Hesbaye1, est un noble franc de la famille des Robertiens. Fils de Robert II de Hesbaye, il est attesté comme comte de Worms et d'Oberrheingau en 812-816.

Il épousa Waldrade2, fille du comte Adrien d'Orléans, nièce d'Hildegarde, femme de Charlemagne, sœur d'Eudes d'Orléans et tante d'Ermentrude d'Orléans, femme de Charles II le Chauve. De ce mariage, ils eurent3 :

• quasi-certainement Robert le Fort († 866), marquis de Neustrie.
• probablement Eudes († 871), comte de Troyes.
• probablement un Adalhelm (mais non celui qui sera le père de Gautier de Laon)
• une fille nommée Wildrut 4

Certains généalogistes, se fondant sur des chartes (de 892 et 937) indiquant un lien familial entre Robert le Fort et Aleran comte de Laon, avancent que ce dernier serait fils de Robert III. Cependant, le lien familial peut être aussi bien maternel que paternel. 5 Or Aleran Ier comte de Troyes (†>885) épouse Wildrut, qui pourrait bien être la fille de Robert III (hypothèse de Jackman), puisqu'il a une fille ayant ce prénom.

De l'union d'Aleran Ier et de Wildrut est né Aleran II alias Adalhelm, comte de Laon, conseiller de Louis II le bègue en 877 et père de Gautier, comte de Laon exécuté en 892.

Robert III mourut avant 834 6. Son fils Robert le Fort hérita de ses comtés en 836 7.

Notes et références[modifier | modifier le code]

1. ↑ Sa généalogie sur le site Medieval Lands [archive]
2. ↑ Pierre Riché, Les Carolingiens, une famille qui fit l'Europe, Paris, Hachette, coll. « Pluriel »,‎ 1983 (réimpr. 1997), 490 p. (ISBN 2-01-278851-3)
3. ↑ Christian Settipani, Les ancêtres de Charlemagne, addenda, 1990 et 2000 [archive]
4. ↑ Medieval Lands [archive]
5. ↑ généalogie d'Aledramn (Aleran) sur le site Medieval Lands [archive]
6. ↑ Karl Ferdinand Werner, Les premiers Robertiens et les premiers Anjou (IXe siècle - Xe siècle), in : Mémoires de la Société des Antiquaires de l’Ouest, 1997.
7. ↑ Hélène Noizet, L’ascension du lignage robertien : du val de Loire à la Francie, Annuaire-Bulletin de la société de l’histoire de France (année 2004), 2006, p. 19-35.

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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_III_of_Worms

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Robert III (800–834), also called Rutpert, was the Count of Worms and Rheingau of a noble Frankish family called the Robertians. He was the son of Robert of Hesbaye.

By his wife Waldrada d'Orleans he had his only verified son, Robert the Strong. They are also believed to be the parents of Odo I, Count of Troyes, and Guntram, Count of Wormsgau. His first cousin was Ermengard, wife of the Frankish emperor Louis the Pious. His cousin Chrodogang was Archbishop of Metz and abbot of the Lorsch Abbey. An uncle of Robert was Count Cancor, founder of Lorsch Abbey. Through Robert the Strong he was grandfather of two kings of Western Francia, Odo and Robert. He was the great-great-grandfather of Hugo Capet, the founder of the Capetian dynasty which ruled France until the French Revolution in 1792 and then again from 1814 until 1848 with the exception of the Hundred Days in 1815.

References[edit] Riché, Pierre. The Carolingians, a family that Forged Europe.