Robert II FitzHugh de Grandmesnil

Robert de Grantmesnil: Issues to Consider

1. RE: Marriages: Medlands thinks the following might be the order of Robert's marriages: (1) Lucy de Beaumont-au-Maine; (2) Emma de Stuteville; (3) Agnes de Meschines of Chester — and this despite Orderic Vitalis referring to Lucy as Robert's 3rd wife.
2. Medlands – (Normandy Nobility: Arques, Aumâle, Caux, Rouen, Eu) – does not show a year of the death for Emma d'Estouteville .
3. Unless a bona fide source proves her death year being 1125, it's seems valid to rethink whether she died up to 27 years sooner, say 1093 – if one accepts Guillaume (b.c. 1092) as her son by Robert. Please consider the next three points:
   1. Medlands shows a daughter of this Robert named Agnes, who is not connected to this profile as of 3 Aug 2024. Presumably, she was the daughter of Robert's wife. Agnes.
   2. To accept Medlands marriage order infers daughter Agnes was a daughter of Emma or Lucy, not Agnes.
   3. Unless Robert divorced Emma d'Estouteville , it seems implausible that Robert begat Agnes aged about 75! – Not having a source proving a divorce, when other details about him are sourced, seems improbable.
      1. FYI: Wikitree's profile for Robert (Grandmesnil) de Grantmesnil (bef. 1060–abt. 1136), last updated 9 June 2022, wrongly shows Robert's circa marriage years to each woman – sans sourcing or reasoning.

Medlands:(25 Feb 2024 update) Normandy: Alençon, Evreux, Meulan, Perche:

• ....Hugues de Grantmesnil & his wife Adelise de Beaumont were the parents of:
  • ROBERT de Grantmesnil ([before 1060]–1 Jun [1136], bur Ouche Saint-Evroul). Orderic Vitalis names “Rodbertum, Guillelmum, Hugonem, Ivonem, Albericum” as the sons of “Hugo de Grentemaisnilio” and his wife “Adelidem filiam Ivonis comitis de Bellomonte”[353].
  • Considering that Robert's younger brother Guillaume was considered of marriageable age before [1081] (see below), it is unlikely that Robert was born later than [1060], although this would mean that he was probably in his fifties at the time of his first marriage (considering the estimated birth date range of his first wife) which seems surprising.
  • “…Rotberti de Grentemaisnillo, Ivonis de Grentemaisnillo…” witnessed the charter dated Sep 1093 under which William II King of England donated property to Lincoln cathedral[354]. * "…Robert de Grentone-Maisnil…" witnessed the undated charter under which Robert III Duke of Normandy donated property to Saint-Etienne de Caen[355].
  • "Robert de Grantemsnil et Robert de sancto Serenico" confirmed donations of property to the abbey of Saint-Evroul made by "their progenitors Hugh and Robert de Grentemesnil" by charter dated to [1127/28][356].
  • Orderic Vitalis records that Robert de Grantmesnil died “Kal Jun” 38 years after his father and was buried at Ouche “cum duabus uxoribus suis: Agnete et Emma”[357].
    • m [firstly] [as her second husband,] EMMA d’Estouteville, [widow of ERRAND Seigneur d'Harcourt[358],] daughter of ROBERT [I] d'Estouteville & his wife [Beatrix ---] (-bur Ouche Saint-Evroul). Orderic Vitalis records that Robert de Grantmesnil, son of “Hugo de Grentemaisnilio” and his wife, married secondly “Emmam Rodberti de Stotevilla filiam”[359]. The chronology of these families suggests that Emma must have been Robert’s first wife not his second. The Liber Vitæ of Durham names "Robertus de Stuteville, Beatrix uxor eius, Robertus, Graulfus, Willelmus filii eorum, Emma Robertus…" and in a later passage the same names with the last two replaced by "Emme uxor Rodberti, Rodbertus filius eius…"[360]. La Roque states that “une généalogie de la maison d’Estouteville” names Errand’s wife as “Emme et la comprend entre ceux du sang...[de] Robert d’Estouteville”, suggesting that she was the same person who later married “Hugues de Grentesmesnil”[361]. The passage is somewhat garbled and in any case La Roque does not provide a citation reference to the source in question or quote it in his “Preuves”. It is suggested that, until further documentation comes to light, this supposed marriage of Errand should be treated with caution. Orderic Vitalis records that Robert de Grantmesnil died “Kal Jun” 38 years after his father and was buried at Ouche “cum duabus uxoribus suis: Agnete et Emma”[362].
    • m [secondly] LUCY, daughter of SAVARY de Beaumont-au-Maine & his wife Muriel de Bohun. Orderic Vitalis records that Robert de Grantmesnil, son of “Hugo de Grentemaisnilio” and his wife, married thirdly “Luciam Savarici filii Cani filiam”[363]. Given the likely chronology of Robert’s wife Agnes, it is probable that Lucy was his second rather than his third wife.
    • m [thirdly] AGNES [Aveline], daughter of RANULF "le Meschin" Vicomte du Bessin [Bayeux] [later Earl of Chester] & his wife Lucy --- ([1098/1105]-bur Ouche Saint-Evroul). Orderic Vitalis records that Robert de Grantmesnil, son of “Hugo de Grentemaisnilio” and his wife, married firstly “Agnetem Ranulfi Bajocensis filiam”[364]. Her birth date range is estimated from the likely marriage date of her parents. If that range is correct, it is more likely that Agnes was Robert’s third wife than his first. Orderic Vitalis records that Robert de Grantmesnil died “Kal Jun” 38 years after his father and was buried at Ouche “cum duabus uxoribus suis: Agnete et Emma”[365].
    • Robert de Grantmesnil & his [first] wife had one child:
      • a) ROBERT. The Liber Vitæ of Durham names "Robertus de Stuteville, Beatrix uxor eius, Robertus, Graulfus, Willelmus filii eorum, Emma Robertus…" and in a later passage the same names with the last two replaced by "Emme uxor Rodberti, Rodbertus filius eius…"[366].
    • Robert de Grantmesnil & his [first/second] wife had [two] children:
      • b) AGNES de Grantmesnil (-after 1115). Orderic Vitalis records that Robert had recently married "Agnete filia Rodberti de Gretemaisnilio" when he was banished from Normandy by Henry I King of England, and left with her for Apulia[367]. The chronology suggests that she was born either from her father’s first or second marriage. m ([1115]%29 ROBERT Seigneur de Moulins-la-Marche, son of GUILLAUME Seigneur de Moulins-la-Marche & his first wife Albreda [de Moulins].
      • c) [HUGUES de Grantmesnil. "Hugues de Grantmesnil" is named as father of Pernel, wife of Robert de Beaumont Earl of Leicester, in an account of the foundation of Leicester Abbey, but the Complete Peerage casts doubt on the accuracy of this statement as the same source gives details of Pernel's inheritance from him which are clearly incorrect[368]. No other reference to this person has been found. As noted below, Pernel named her father as Guillaume in a charter for Saint-Evroult Notre-Dame-du-Bois which suggests that this Hugues did not exist.]

At least two children (mothers uncertain):— (1) "'Guillaume"' aka Hugues (see discussion below): (2) Agnes.

a) PSW inserts: [GUILLAUME (see below) aka] HUGUES de Grantmesnil. "Hugues de Grantmesnil" is named as father of Pernel in an account of the foundation of Leicester Abbey, but the Complete Peerage casts doubt on the accuracy of this as the same source gives details of Pernel's inheritance from him which are clearly incorrect[323]. No other reference to this person has been found. As noted below, Pernel was most likely descended from the senior branch of the Grantmesnil family as she brought the Norman honour of Grantmesnil to her husband, but she may have been the daughter of Robert de Grantmesnil's daughter Agnes.] m ---.

[INSERTED CURATOR'S NOTE from PSW 8/2013: Chris Phillips on the site Medieval English Genealogy provides an update and correction to this account based upon a recent discovery of a charter for St-Evroult discovered by David Crouch [The Beaumont Twins, p.91, citing the Cartulary of St-Evroult, ii, fo 33v] showing that Pernel's father's name was William (or Guillaume). Based upon this evidence, as well as the lack of credibility of the foundation narrative of the Leicester Abbey that names her father as Hugues, it is more likely that this son of Robert's was named GUILLAUME de Grantmesnil. According to Phillips, "K.S.B. Keats-Rohan [Domesday People I, p.263 (1999)] states that Pernel's father William was the son of Robert by Emma d'Estouteville, but no evidence is cited for the relationship."]

[Guillaume]/Hugues & his wife had [one] child:
i) [PERNEL [Petronille] (-1 Apr 1212). Pernel is named as great granddaughter of Hugues de Grantmesnil in the [1190/1204] charter of her son Robert FitzPernel to the abbey of St Evroul[324]. Her father is named Hugh de Grantmesnil in an account of the foundation of Leicester Abbey, but the Complete Peerage casts doubt on the accuracy of this as mentioned above[325]. Robert de Torigny records that her husband gained the Norman honour of Grantmesnil through his marriage[326], which suggests that Pernel, as heiress, was descended from the oldest son of Hugues de Grantmesnil senior. It is possible that she was the daughter of Agnes, daughter of Robert de Grantmesnil. Considering that Orderic Vitalis does not name Hugues (supposed brother of Agnes) although he is so thorough in naming other members of this family, this is the most likely possibility. "Robertus filius comitis Legrece" donated property to Notre-Dame de la Trappe for the soul of "uxoris mee Petronille" by charter dated [1153/67][327]. "Petronilla comitissa Leircestrie" confirmed the exchange of land with Nuneaton priory made by "Robertus comes Leircestrie filius meus", who gave land in Belgrave in return for land in Dadlington which had been donated by "sponsus meus Robertus comes…cum filia mea pie memorie Hawis", by charter dated to after 1189[328]. The Testa de Nevill lists knights who held land from the king in Hertfordshire, dated to [1204/12]: "comitissa de Leicestria" held "Wares"[329]. The necrology of Lyre monastery records the death "1 Apr" of "Petronilla comitissa Leicestriæ"[330]. The necrology of the monastery of Ouche records the death "1 Apr" of "Petronilla comitissa Leycestriæ"[331]. m (before [1155/59]) ROBERT de Beaumont "ès Blanchemains", son of ROBERT de Beaumont Earl of Leicester & his wife Amicie de Gaël (-Durazzo 1190). He succeeded his father in 1168 as Earl of Leicester.

b) AGNES de Grantmesnil (after [1115]-). Daughter of Robert de Grantmesnil according to Orderic Vitalis, who also names her husband and his parents[332]. It is not known from which of Robert's marriages she was born but her first name suggests that her mother was his first wife. The age of Robert when he married also suggests that the likelihood of his fathering children would have decreased with his later marriages. Her birth date is unknown, but it could not have been before [1115] at the earliest considering the likely birth date range of Robert's first wife. m ROBERT de Moulins-la-Marche, son of GUILLAUME de Moulins-la-Marche & his wife Aubrée ---. He was banished from Normandy by Henry I King of England after he attacked Enguerrand l'Oison, and went to Apulia with his wife "whom he had lately married" and died there "after several years as a wanderer among the dwellings of strangers"[333].

Keats-Rohan’s Domesday People: Domesday Book (pp. 262-3) gives this Bio for Hugh de Grandmesnil, which includes his children:

"Hugo de Grantmesnil
“Hugh de Grandmesnil (Calvados, arr. Lisieux, cant. Saint-Pierre-sur-Dives), fl. 1040-94, was the eldest of the three sons of Robert of Grandmesnil and Hawise, daughter of Giroie, lord of Echauffour and Montreuil-l'Argille, whose relatives were both vassals and rivals of the Belleme family). Hawise was secondly the wife of William, son of Archbishop Robert of Rouen. She eventually became a nun at Montivilliers accompanied by two of her daughters, for whom her son Hugh made provision. When their father died in 1040, Hugh and his brother Robert apparently each inherited part of the family fief. Their youngest brother Arnald and their cousin William de Montreuil went to Apulia as mercenaries c.1050.Hugh and Robert were immortalized by their decision to found a monastery sometime around 1050.The site chosen being unsuitable, they followed the advice of their uncle William fitz Giroie and decided to refound the ancient abbey of Saint-Evroul, first compensating the monks of Bec who then owned the ruins. The monk and historian of Saint-Evroult, Orderic Vitalis, tells us of the generous endowment of the abbey by the brothers and their maternal kin. In the same year the younger brother Robert entered the abbey as a monk; he became its abbot in 1059. Falsely accused by Mabel of Belleme, wife of Roger de Montgomery, in the wake of a rebellion by Robert fitz Giroie, Hugh and Robert, among others of their maternal kin, were exiled in1061. Robert became an abbot in Sicily, but Hugh was recalled in 1064 and subsequently fought with William I. at Hastings. The move undoubtedly made his fortune. During William's absence in Normandy in 1067, Hugh was among those left in charge of the vital hinterland of Dover, apparently having special responsibility for the region of Winchester. By 1086 he was castellan and sheriff of Leicestershire, where he held sixty-seven manors. He also held extensive property in Nottinghamshire, Hertfordshire, Northamptonshire, Gloucestershire, Warwickshire and Suffolk. Several of his Norman vassals held these lands from him, including Hugh and Robert Burdet, Osbert de Neufmarché and Walter de Beaumais. He returned to Normandy in 1068 to check on the activities of his beautiful French wife Adeliza (d. 11 July 1091), daughter of Ivo count of Beaumont-sur-Oise. Adeliza's English dower-lands were recorded separately from Hugh's in 1086. They included manors in Bedfordshire which Hugh had acquired by exchange with Ralph Taillebois. After Ralph's death (before 1086) Hugh disputed Ralph's inheritance with Hugh de Beauchamp, Ralph's son-in-law and principal heir, and the husband of Ralph's niece, Ranulf brother of Ilger. Two of Hugh's sons, Ivo and Aubrey, earned their father's disapproval by joining the revolt of the king's son Robert Curthose in 1078. Hugh was among those who helped to effect a reconciliation between the king and Robert in 1079. Although he supported Curthose against William II. In 1087-8, Hugh retained his offices under the new king. He was in Normandy in January 1091, assisting Robert de Courcy, husband of his daughter Rohais, against Robert de Belleme, son of Mabel. This action provoked conflict with Robert Curthose, duke of Normandy, but matters were resolved by the appearance of William II. in Normandy. Hugh was in England when he died on 22 February 1098, a few days after becoming a monk of Saint-Evroult, whose habit had previously been sent to him for the purpose. His body was buried at Saint-Evroult, where Orderic Vitalis wrote his epitaph. Hugh and Adeliza had ten children: five daughters ,Adelina, married Roger d'Ivry), Rohais (Robert de Courcy), Matilda (Hugh de Montpincon), Agnes (William de Sai) and Hawise, and five sons, Robert, William, Hugh, Ivo and Aubrey. William (who later settled in Apulia), Ivo and Aubrey were among the ‘rope-dancers of Antioch’ in 1098. ROBERT (d.c. 1136) succeeded to Hugh’s Norman estates, which he governed as a supporter of Henry I. The English lands went to Ivo, who may previously have acted as his father’s steward (dapifer). See Orderic Vitalis, ii, 38, 40, 90, 106, 174, 264; ii, 226, 234-6; iv, 124, 230-36, 336-8; 6, 18, 304. Although his son Ivo lost his English fief to Robert earl of Leicester, Hugh’s cross-Channel estates were subsequently reunified when his great-granddaughter Petronilla (CDF 653), daughter of William de Grandmesnil, son of Robert de Grandmesnil and his second wife Emma de Stuteville, married Robert de Beaumont III, earl of Leicester.”

“Dugdale, Monasticon Anglicanum, II, p.602, No. XX; Douglas, Feudal Documents from Bury St Edmunds, No.14; i, fol. 237a; i, fol. 236b; i, fol. 242a i, fol .224c; i, fol. 232b; i,f ol.232b; i, fol. 232b; i, fol. 232b; i, fol. 232b; i, fol. 242a; i, fol. 232b; i, fol. 236b; i, fol.169 b; i, fol. 291c; i, fol. 291c; i, fol. 360c; i, fol. 138c; i, fol. 230a; i, fol. 242a; i, fol. 232b; i, fol. 230a; i, fol.52a; i, fol. 230a; i, fol. 230a; i, fol. 230a; i, fol. 230a; i, fol. 230a; i, fol. 236b; i, fol. 230a; i, fol. 224d; i, fol. 230a; i, fol. 230 a; i, fol. 230a; i, fol. 230a; i, fol.169b; i, fol. 230a; i, fol. 232b; i ,fol. 232b; i, fol. 236b; i, fol. 230a; i, fol. 232a; i, fol. 230a; i, fol. 232a; i, fol. 232a; i, fol. 242a; i, fol. 232a; i, fol. 232a; i, fol. 232a; i, fol. 232b; i, fol. 232a; i, fol. 232a; i, fol. 232a; i ,fol. 232a ;i, fol. 230a; i, fol. 230a; i, fol. 232a; i, fol. 230a; i, fol. 236c;I ,fol. 238a; i, fol. 242a; i, fol. 232a; i, fol. 242a; i, fol. 230a; i, fol.169b; i, fol. 232a; i, fol. 242a; i, fol. 232a; i, fol. 232a; i, fol. 232a;i, fol. 232a; i, fol. 232a; i, fol. 232a; i, fol. 232a; i, fol. 232b; i, fol. 242a; i, fol. 232a; i, fol. 232a; i, fol.138c; i, fol. 242a; i, fol. 224c; i, fol. 291c; i, fol.169b; ii fol.432a; ii, fol.432a; i, fol. 215b; i, fol.134d; i, fol.173d”

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Reference: WikiTree Genealogy - SmartCopy: Jan 4 2016, 9:13:14 UTC

Alternative Spellings: de Grantmesnil, Grentmesnil, Grandmesnil, Grentesmesnil

NOTE: After the Frankish empire ceased, the Duché de Normandie was autonomous from France for several decades. Not long after William the Conqueror laid claim to England. Normandy was ravaged by battles for control of it. It took a long time before France, as a country, won the region. This is why some curators do not include France after Normandie / Normandy.

RE: DÉPARTEMENTS OF FRANCE: The first designated, governed regional départments of France were created on 26 February 1790.
“The departments were created...as a rational replacement of Ancien Régime provinces with a view to strengthen national unity;[4] the title "department" is used to mean a part of a larger whole.[5] Almost all of them were named after physical geographical features (rivers, mountains, or coasts), rather than after historical or cultural territories, which could have their own loyalties, or after their own administrative seats. The division of France into departments was a project particularly identified with the French revolutionary leader the Abbé Sieyès,[6][7] although it had already been frequently discussed and written about by many politicians and thinkers. The earliest known suggestion of it is from 1665 in the writings of d'Argenson.[8]”