Juliana de Beauchamp

In an extensive and exhaustive discussion found at https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/soc.genealogy.medieval/963v..., medieval genealogist Douglas Richardson has determined, based upon an array of evidence, that Juliana who married Robert de Beauchamp was most likely the daughter of Alice de Coleville and an illegitimate daughter of John Marshal. Bottom line, there seems to be no absolute certainty exactly who her father was, but it was unlikely to have been anyone named le Brett.

Ancestry:com

Name: Julianna LeBRETT

• Birth: 1195 - Somerset, England
• Death: 1220 - Somerset, England
• Marriage: 1216 - Somerset, England
• Parents: RALPH Payn LeBRETT, Alice De COLVILLE
• Spouse: ROBERT IV FitzSimmons De BEAUCHAMP

Name: Julianna Le Brett

• Birth: 1125
• Parents: Ralph Le Brett, Isabell Bedfordshire
• Spouse: Robert de Beauchamp

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From: Douglas Richardson <royalancestry@msn.com> Subject: Alice de Coleville, mistress of John Marshal, King's Marshal Date: Sun, 2 Sep 2012 09:53:21 -0700 (PDT) References: <mailman.5.1346542269.25795.gen-medieval@rootsweb.com> In-Reply-To: <mailman.5.1346542269.25795.gen-medieval@rootsweb.com>

Dear Merilyn ~

Thank you for your good post. You've asked an excellent question.

Surviving records of the Beauchamp family of Hatch Beauchamp, Somerset indicate that Robert de Beauchamp of Hatch Beauchamp (died 1263) and his maternal aunt, Sibyl de Bermingham, were in default in 1255 in respect of the manor of Dorton, Buckinghamshire; they absented themselves from suit of court for three years [see Hund. R. (Rec. Com.), i, 26].

As such, it appears that Robert de Beauchamp's mother, Juliane, and her sister, Sibyl de Bermingham (ancestress of the later Lords Ferrers of Chartley) were co-heirs of the manor of Dorton, Buckinghamshire. Indeed a moiety share of this manor descended in each of these families. Robert and his aunt, Sibyl, also each inherited a half share of the manor of Maidencourt (in East Garston), Berkshire [see Lysons, Magna Britannia 1 (1806): 283].

There is a very sketchy history of the history of Dorton, Buckinghamshire published in VCH Buckingham 4 (1927): 45-48. The following information is given in that source:

"No certain record of the sub-tenancy of Dorton before the 13th century survives, though possibly the knight's fee which Pain de Dorton held of Walter Giffard in 1166 was in this parish. (fn. 15) By 1255 the manor had been divided into two parts. (fn. 16) One of these, then owned by Sibyl de Birmingham." END OF QUOTE.

That Pain de Dorton held lands at Dorton, Buckinghamshire is established by Kennett, Parochial Antiq. Attempted in the Hist. of Ambrosden, Burcester & other adjacent Parts 2 (1818): 457. This source includes a charter of Pain de Dorton and Rose his wife, and William their son and heir, who granted Nutley Abbey the chapel of Dorton, Buckinghamshire and one yard land there. Mr. Kennett dates this charter as being about 1188, which seems reasonable to me.

Proceedings of Somerset Arch. & Nat. Hist. Soc. 36(2) (1891): 20–59 gives the following additional information regarding Pain de Dorton:

"In the former county they held the manor of Dourton, which suggests a probable connection with the Bauchamps Barons of Bedford, as in the reign of Henry II, Dourton was in the possession of Payan de Dourton, and Roesia, his wife, who may have been Payan, son of Hugh Beauchamp (the founder of the family, according to Dugdale'"'), and Roesia, his wife, daughter of Aubrey de Vere. There is a difficulty, however, in establishing their identity, as the son and heir of Payan de Dourton is called William ; whereas the name of the eldest son of Payan Beauchamp was Simon. In Berks the Beauchamps held the manor of Maidencote, and in a fine levied 32nd Henry III, between John, Prior of Sandelford [in Berkshire], plaintiff, and Robert Beauchamp the younger, defendant, the said Robert granted to the Prior and his successors two quarters of corn yearly from his manor of Maidencote, with a proviso for increasing it, if at any time the lands which Sibilla his aunt (" amita"), held in the ville of Maidencote as her portion of the inheritance of Alice de Coleville her mother, should devolve on the said Robert or his heirs." END OF QUOTE.

As we can see above, there is a Berkshire fine dated 1247-8 in which Robert de Beauchamp's aunt [amita], Sibyl, is specifically named. And Sibyl in turn is there identified as the daughter of Alice de Coleville.

Thus it would appear that Robert de Beauchamp's maternal grandmother was a certain Alice de Coleville. It is easy to assume that Coleville was Alice's married name. However, it is just as possible that Coleville was this lady's maiden name.

VCH Berkshire 4 (1924): 246-251 includes a history of the subtenancy of the manor of Maidencourt (in East Garston), Berkshire. The following information is given there:

"The tenant in demesne in the time of Henry II was Osbert de la Herloteria, who was dead before 1190. The next tenant was Alice de Colville, who made a grant of 6 quarters of wheat here to the priory of Sandleford for the souls of John le Marshal and his son William Earl of Pembroke. (fn. 70) She evidently had two daughters and co-heirs, of whom one, Sibyl, married a Birmingham and the other married Robert Beauchamp of Hatch, Somerset. (fn. 71) Robert Beauchamp, nephew of Sibyl, and William de Birmingham held Maidencourt in the middle of the 13th century." END OF QUOTE.

Once again we meet with Alice de Coleville (or Colville), who is said to have made a grant to the "priory of Sandleford" "for the souls of John le Marshal and his son William Earl of Pembroke." Surely Sandford Priory is intended and those charters are now in print.

Elsewhere Haskins Society Journal, volume 10 (2002) contains an interesting article by Richard Dace entitled "Lesser Barons and Greater Knights: The Middling Group within the English Nobility c.1086-c.1265." This article may be viewed at the following weblink:

http://books.google.com/books?id=y_x4xbPOvGAC&pg=PA65

On page 65 the following information is given:

"The marriage of William of Birmingham III with Sibyl de Coleville in the early thirteenth century can also be seen in terms of forging a new relationship outside the honorial structure. Sibyl was the daughter and co-heiress of Alice de Coleville, who was the mistress of William Marshal's brother John. It does not seem unreasonable to suggest that this was an attempt by the Birmingham family toi become part of the Earl Marshal's affinity; the 'penunmbra of men, whom it would be difficult to call followers because they did not follow him on any regular basis.'" [Footnote citation: William Marshal 81 n. 33 and Book of Fees, 842 and 881.]. END OF QUOTE.

So there you have it. Alice de Coleville was the mistress of John Marshal, King's Marshal (died 1194), elder brother of the famous William Marshal, Earl of Pembroke.

Was John Marshal the father of Alice de Colville's daughters, Juliane and Sibyl. On this point, I can't immediately answer. I do know that Alice was the mother of John Marshal's illegitimate son, Sir John Marshal, Knt., Marshal of Ireland (died 1235).

Is there any connection between Alice de Colville and Pain de Dorton? Again I can't answer that question but my guess is not. Presumably the Marshal family settled the manors of Dorton and Maidencourt on Alice de Colville, and they in turn passed by inheritance to her daughter, Sibyl de Bermingham, and grandson, Robert de Beauchamp. If Alice only had illegitimate issue, however, technically they could not inherit from her. However, if a settlement of Alice's lands was made on her daughters at the time of their marriage, I assume the king would have honored that settlement.

I've leave it to you Merilyn to track down the other references given above, including William Marshal 81 n. 33 and Leys, Sandford Cartulary 1 (Oxfordshire Rec. Soc. 19) (1938) and 2 (Oxfordshire Rec. Soc. 22) (1941). I assume the William Marshal reference is the book written by David Crouch.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

On Saturday, September 1, 2012 5:31:10 PM UTC-6, merilyn...@internode.on.net wrote:

In February 2002 there was a discussion here about Juliana Brett, the wife of Robert III de Beauachamp of Hatch Beauchamp, Somerset. Douglas Richardson mentioned that his research indicated that she was not a

Brett at all, but rather the "daughter and co-heiress of Pain de Dourton, of Dourton, co. Buckingham. This discovery will be covered by the forthcoming book, Baronial Ancestry, due out in about a year."