Margaret de Guines

Not the same as Margaret de Burgh (nun)

Biography

Margaret de Guines was born circa 1262. She married Sir Richard de Burgh, 2nd Earl Ulster, 4th Lord Connaught, son of Sir Walter de Burgh, 1st Earl of Ulster, Lord Connaught and Aveline FitzJohn, before 27 February 1281.

They had 4 sons (Walter; John; Thomas; & Sir Edmund) and 6 daughters (Eleanor, wife of Sir Thomas, 1st Lord Multon; Elizabeth, wife of Robert I de Brus, King of Scotland; Maud, wife of Sir Gilbert de Clare, Earl of Gloucester & Hertford; Aveline, wife of John de Bermingham, Earl of Louth; Katherine, wife of Maurice FitzThomas, 1st Earl of Desmond; & Joan, wife of Thomas FitzJohn, 2nd Earl of Kildare, and of Sir John, 1st Lord Darcy).

Margaret de Guines died in 1304. Sir Richard de Burgh, 2nd Earl Ulster, 4th Lord Connaught died on 29 July 1326 at Monastery at Athassel-on-the-Suir, Tipperary, Ireland; buried there.

The 10 children of Margaret and Richard de Burgh were:

1. Aveline de Burgh born about 1280 Connaught Province, Ireland; wife of John de Bermingham, 1st Earl of Louth.
2. Eleanor de Burgh born 1282 Belfast, Antrim, Ireland died after August 1324; wife of Sir Thomas, 1st Lord Multon.
3. Elizabeth de Burgh born about 1284 Dunfermline, Fifeshire, Scotland died 26 October 1327 Cullen, Banffshire, Scotland buried Dunfermline, Fifeshire, Scotland; wife of Robert I de Brus, King of Scotland.
4. Walter de Burgh born about 1285 Ulster Province, Ireland died 1304.
5. Maud (Matilda) de Burgh born about 1288 Gloucestershire, England died 1320; wife of Sir Gilbert de Clare, Earl of Gloucester & Hertford.
6. Thomas de Burgh born about 1288 Ulster Province, Ireland died 1316.
7. John de Burgh, 3rd Earl of Ulster, b. c. 1290, died 18 January 1313 Le Ford, Belfast, Ireland; married Elizabeth de Clare.
8. Katherine de Burgh born about 1296 Ireland died 1 November 1331 Dublin, Ireland, wife of Maurice FitzThomas, 1st Earl of Desmond.
9. Edmund de Burgh born about 1298 Ireland; He was taken prisoner and drowned. He is alleged to have been the ancestor of the BURKE family of Clanwilliam[1520]. [1521][m as her first husband, --- of Thomond, daughter of TURLOUGH O'Brien of Thomond & his wife ---. She married secondly (1339) Turlough O'Connor King of Connaught.]
10. Joan de Burgh born about 1300 Ulster, Ireland died 23 April 1359 Friars Church, Minors, Kildare, Ireland buried Kildare, Ireland; wife of Thomas FitzJohn, 2nd Earl of Kildare, and of Sir John, 1st Lord Darcy.

From the Annals of the Four Masters: (see <Annals of the Four Masters> From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

• M1303.8.A great army was led by the King of England into Scotland; and the Red Earl and many of the Irish and English went with a large fleet from Ireland to his assistance. On this occasion they took many cities, and gained sway over Scotland. Theobald Burke, the Earl's brother, died after his return from this expedition, on Christmas night, at Carrickfergus.
• M1304.2. The Countess, wife of Richard Burke, Earl of Ulster, i.e. the Red Earl, and Walter de Burgo, heir of the same Earl, died. <English>
• M1304.2. An Contaois, ben Riocaird A Burc iarla Uladh, .i. an t-Iarla Ruadh, & Uater A Burc oighre an iarla chedna do écc. <Irish>
• M1305.2. The new castle of Inishowen was erected by the Red Earl.

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Disputed Origins

Until 27 May 2022, this profile showed:

Margaret de Burgh born about 1264 Portslade, Sussex, England died 1304.

• father: Sir John de Burgh, feudal Baron Lanvallei of Walkern born about 1236 Lanvalay, Connaught, Ireland died 1279 Lanvalay, Connaught, Ireland
• mother: Cecilia de Baliol born about 1240 Bernard Castle, Gainford, Durham, England died 1289

Those origins are disputed by medievalists:

From <“Margaret de Guines, wife of Sir Richard de Burgh, Earl of Ulster [died 1326”] (post Jun 12, 2020)

Jour. of Royal Society of Antiquaries of Ireland Ser. 6 11 1921): 72 identifies Margaret, wife of Sir Richard de Burgh, as “daughter of John de Burgh of Lanvallay, and great-grand-daughter of Hubert de Burgh, Earl of Kent.” This is followed by Duffy et al., Medieval Ireland: An Encyclopedia (2005): 93–95, who states that Richard de Burgh “married a distant relative, Margaret, the great-granddaughter of Hubert de Burgh” [Earl of Kent]). Unfortunately there is no evidence that such a person as this particular Margaret ever existed.

Rather, an article by the historian, John Carmi Parsons, in Genealogists’ Magazine 20 (1982): 335–340 identifies Margaret, wife of Richard de Burgh, as a possible daughter of Arnoul III, Count of Guines, by his wife, Alice de Coucy. Parsons states that “Comte Arnoul III of Guines had … a daughter who was married to a mysterious Irish lord”, he citing Anselme, Hist. de la Maison Royale de France 8 (1733): 543 ff; Chesnaye-Desbois, Dict. de la Noblesse 8 (1866): cols. 40–41, and 4, cols. 129–131. Parsons provides additional evidence which showed that Queen Eleanor of Castile was directly involved with what appeared to be a marriage settlement of lands of young Richard and his wife, Margaret, right about the time of their marriage. This settlement by the Queen was similar in nature to other known settlements made by Queen Eleanor of Castile on behalf of her female Continental relatives when they married into English nobility.

The evidence that Count Arnoul III of Guines had such a daughter married to an Irish lord is found in something entitled "Lignages de Coucy" written in 1303, evidently at the command of Count Arnoul's own son, Enguerrand de Guines, seigneur de Coucy. A transcript of this account is published in Du Chesne, Histoire Généalogique des Maisons de Guines, d'Ardres, de Gand, et de Coucy, et de Quelques Autres Familles Illustres (1631). It can be found in Preuves, pg. 302 of this work at the following weblink: <GoogleBooks> Briefly, the pertinent part of this account reads as follows:

"Encores ot li Cuens Arnoul de Guignes trois filles, dont l'vne fut mariée en Yllande ... "

Based on his research, Mr. Parsons made the preliminary identification of this Guines daughter as being the same person as Margaret, wife of Sir Richard de Burgh, Earl of Ulster. After giving the matter considerable thought, I've decided that Mr. Parsons is correct in his identification.

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From <“Richard de Burgh wife Margaret”> (Oct 14, 2011)

… John Carmi Parsons, in his article 'Eleanor of Castile and the Countess Margaret of Ulster', _The Genealogists’ Magazine_ 20 (1982) 335–340.

He pointed out the unlikelihood that Richard de Burgh's wife Margaret was the daughter of a John de Burgh of Lanvallay - the elder of these men died in 1248 and 'can hardly have been father-in-law of a man born as late as 1259', while the younger did have a daughter named Margaret but she became a nun and did not receive a share with her sisters in the Lanvallay inheritance. The more probable, though unproven, link to the counts of Guines is taken from Pere Anselme, who stated that an unnamed daughter of Count Arnoul III by Alice de Coucy married an unidentified Irish lord.

In the article this information was not traced further - it came via “Histoire généalogique des maisons de Guines, d’Ardres, de Gand, et de Coucy,” by André Duchesne, <GoogleBooks> from a 15th century genealogy of the families of Dreux and Coucy that is now in the Bibliothèque national in Paris. No more definite evidence has come to light as far as I know.

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https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Guines-5

"Margaret was emphatically not a daughter of John de Burgh of Lanvallay, grandson of the infamous justiciar John de Burgh. The younger John did leave 3 daughters, two of whose marriages are well attested (neither one to Richard de Burgh nor any member of that family); the third, who was named Margaret, had become a nun before her father died, so the inheritance was divided only between her two elder sisters. The inheritance was never subsequently re- apportioned to provide for the third sister or any of her issue, and she evidently remained in her cloister to die unmarried and childless. " (Ref: http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/GEN-MEDIEVAL/1999-03/... )

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Eleanor of Castile: The Shadow Queen. By Sara Cockerill. (2014) <GoogleBooks>

References

• https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_%C3%93g_de_Burgh,_2nd_Earl_of... retrieved May 2022 shows her parents as John de Burgh & Cecilia de Baliol, but previously showed them a generation earlier (Sir John de Burgh and Hawise of Lanvaley)
• http://www.mathematical.com/burghmargaret1264.htm shows her parents as John de Burgh & Cecilia de Baliol
• http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/IRELAND.htm#KatherineBurghdied1331 has no parents for her.
• Richardson in Royal Ancestry 2013 Vol. II page 16 states that her surname was unknown.
• Magna Carta Ancestry: A Study in Colonial and Medieval Families, 2nd Edition ... Page 355-356. <GoogleBooks> surname unknown.
• https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Guines-5 shows as daughter of Arnoul lll de Guînes and Alix Coucy.
• Dictionary of Irish Biography: https://www.dib.ie/biography/burgh-richard-de-a1132. Last revised October 2009. “He had married Margaret de Guines, a relative of Queen Eleanor, before 27 February 1281; they had four sons, three of whom predeceased Richard, and six daughters.”
• https://our-royal-titled-noble-and-commoner-ancestors.com/p113.htm#... shows as daughter of Arnoul (Guînes) de Guînes and Alix (Coucy), and notes: “Margaret de Guines. She is not shown in ES, Vol. XXVII, Tafel 64; nor is she shown as part of the Guines family in Magna Carta Ancestry, 2nd Edition, Vol. 1, p. 356.”
• DNA vs Irish Annals by Brad Larkin <PDF> (Updated 10/21/2014) “de Burgh / Burke / Bourke” slide 51. (Anglo-Norman origins)
• https://www.genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00110845&tree=LEO shows as daughter of Arnoul lll de Guînes and Alix Coucy. Cites
• 1. [S01723] Eleanor of Castile and the Countess Margaret of Ulster. Genealogist Magazine, June 1982, Parsons, John Carmi.
• 2. [S00119] The Lineage and Ancestry of H.R.H. Prince Charles, Prince of Wales, Edinburgh, 1977, Paget, Gerald. Vol 1 183
• 3. [S00058] The Complete Peerage, 1936 , Doubleday, H.A. & Lord Howard de Walden. 12:176
• https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/85679488/richard-de-burgh does not identify his wife.
• Elizabeth de Burgh, queen of Scots, at <unofficialroyalty.com> “Possibly his cousin, Margaret de Burgh or Margaret de Guines.”
• Seán Duffy, "Burgh, Richard de, second earl of Ulster [called the Red Earl] (b. in or after 1259, d. 1326)," Oxford Dictionary of National Biography (Oxford University Press, 2004, online edition <Subscription>
• Histoire généalogique des maisons de Guines d'Ardres, de Gand et de Coucy et ... By André Du Chesne. Page 302. <GoogleBooks>