Christiana uxor quondam Nicolai Camerarii

This profile, locked by Bjorn P. Brox, has for long stood by me with a request to select between 3 different interpretations of respectively the first, middle and last name for the the profile name "Christiana Camerarii".

Firstly, there is no one named "Christiana uxor quondam Nicolai Camerarii".

Ans there is no one named "Christiana Camerarii" ..

Christiana uxor quondam Nicolai Camerarii means:
"the christian wife of Niels, the deceased chamberlain".

It is therefore quite crazy to call her "Christiana Camerarii" and having to choose whether "uxor quondam Nicolai" is the middle name etc.

The profile is not locked at all, it is open to edit and data resolve for every collaborator of the managers. Be my guest to make the needed changes if you have some documentation you can add to the profile.

Desværre, jeg ved ikke, hvad Niels´kone hed.

At hun ikke hed "Christiana Camerarii", behøves der vel ingen dokumentation for, det kan læses ud af mit indlæg.

Det svarer til, at du blev omtalt "som var meget ivrig på nettet", og dit navn herefter ville gå videre som "Som Nettet" med "var meget ivrig på" som mellemnavn.
At Niels´ kone var Niels` kone siger lige som sig selv. Det kan man ikke opfinde et navn på ud af.

Er det så svært at forstå?

Unfortunately, I do not know the name of Niels' wife.

That she was not "Christiana Camerarii" needs no evidence, as it can be read from my post.

It would be like you were mentioned as "who was very keen on the net, "and your name would then proceed as "Who Net" with "was very keen on " as middle name.
Niels' wife was surely Niels `wife but you can not invent a name out of that sentence.

Is it so hard to understand?

Les About Me.

Det er slik hun er navngitt og kjent som de fleste steder og referansen kommer fra DAA.

Bjørn Brox, tænk dig nu om en ekstra gang.
Ingen steder i originale kilder vil du se hende navngivet som
Christiana Camerarii.
Christiana uxor quondam Nicolai Camerarii er en beskrivelse, det er ikke et navn. Der er i kilderne nævnt en usikker mulighed for, at hun kunne hedde Cecilia.
At folk, der ikke tænker sig om, bringer fejlagtigte og opdigtede navne videre, er en katastrofe for slægtsforskning, nu og i fremtiden.

Bjørn Brox wrote:
"Read About Me.
That's how she is named and known at most places and the reference comes from the DAA."

Bjorn Brox, think twice now.
Nowhere in the original sources, you will see her named as
Christiana Camerarii.
"Christiana uxor quondam Nicolai Camerarii" is a description, it is not a name.
In the source it is cited an uncertain possibility that she might be called Cecilia but nowhere Christiana, which is a description of Niels´wife´s religion.
Bringing erroneous and fictitious names, is a disaster for genealogy, present and in the future.

So what? - the name is an exact copy of how she is named both at finnholbek and other sites, - that was my point. It is simpley a respect of a "source".

I agree that it looks strange, but it is exactly as other "wife of" profiles. Since finnholbek obviously is used by the ones who added this profile the name is kept in respect of that "source".

Du finder ingen steder, at Finn Holdbæk navngiver hende Christiana Cameratii!!

Der bliver gjort opmærksom på, hvordan hun kaldes/omtales:

relicta dn. N. Pætersun quondam regis camererii
(efterladt af vores herre. N., Petersen, kongens tidligere kammerherre.)

Christiana uxor quondam Nicolai Camerarii
(den kristne kone af afdøde kammerherre Niels)

At du siger "so what", siger måske noget om standarden her på Geni?
At Finn Holbæk navngiver hende Christians Cameratii, passer ikke. Det er en hurtig konklusion, at navngive hende sådan, udført af nogen, som ikke beskæftiger jeg særlig dybtgående med slægtsforskning, og på den måde ødelægger slægtsforskningens troværdighed på Geni for fremtiden. Hvad hjælper det, at have en masse profiler, hvis størstedelen er noget vås?

Det virker, som om du stadigvæk ikke har forstået, hvad det er jeg siger, så jeg vælger opgivende at forlade denne tråd.

You will find nowhere Finn Holdbæk naming her Christiana Cameratii!

There is made aware of, how she is described:

relicta dn. N. Pætersun quondam regis camererii
(survivor of our lord. N., Petersen, former king's chamberlain.)

Christiana uxor quondam Nicolai Camerarii
(the christian wife of Niels, the deceased chamberlain)

You saying "So What", perhaps says something about the standard here on Geni?
Finn Holbaek do not name her Christian Cameratii. It is a quick conclusion to name her so, done by someone not involved in particularly profound genealogy, and this destroys genealogy research credibility of Geni for the future. What is the meaning of having a lot of profiles, when the majority are nonsense?

It seems as though you still do not understand what I am saying, so I give up and leave this thread.

You need to change your Geni preferences to display Middle name.

It seems this disagreement could be settled merely by placing the information in different fields. If her first name is unknown, then you could use NN or ?? in the first name field, with nothing in the middle or last name field, and then place the descriptive information (Christiana uxor quondam Nicolai Camerarii) in the suffix field. Since there *is* an actual person being referenced in the historical sources, even if her name is not known, it is important to have a profile for her and to lay out as clearly as possible in the About Me section all of the historical references to her and her possible identity.

Quite simple: Just add a source and make your changes.

But again: You could simply contact the profile managers and come with your suggestions and arguments, - at least come with some contributions instead of just complaining. Personally I leave this profile as it is, - first of all because it is not one of my profiles at all, so I really don't understand why A.M makes personal attacks, - secondly I just MP'ed it because the "name" confirms to the applied source, and anyone are free to make any changes they want, but in respect if the profile managers you should come with your arguments first and agree with them. Anyhow, - I am not a part of this.

og i dag har hun sandelig også fået et ungpigenavn,,,,,,,

(and to day she got a maidenname as well,,,,,,)

(As Bjørn Brox advised me 4/3 11, I contacted Poul Rakbek who suddently again was seen in the profile as the adninistrator, and who has add this profile from the beginning - but he was kicked out for long from the profile, and could not do anything to correct the profile. Bjørn Brox advised me to contact the administrator but Bjørn Brox himself was the administrator when I started this thread. Now Bjørn Brox has left the profile and Poul Rahbek has been disconnected for long from the profile, so who is in charge of this profile?
Bjørn Brox asks me to come with some contribution. I think it is excatly what I have done. I have tried so hard to explain - that the woman´s name is unknown but the source is allright. Calling her Christiana Camerarii can only be a joke.)

AM, I will be glad to help you. Please tell me what your recommendation is if you do not agree with what I have done.

Christiana uxor quondam Nicolai Camerarii

means

Christiana who was formerly the wife of Nicolae Camerarius.

so I recommend that her first name be given as Christiana
her last name as NN (Latin abbrevation for name not known)
and that another husband be created for her, if he does not already exist, named Nicolas Camerarius.

This is very simple to resolve. I do not understand why it is taking weeks to do so.

Hi Pam.
In the sentens "Christiana uxor quondam Nicolai Camerarii" we are told that she was the late chamberlain Niels baptized wife. Her name is unknown. Niels Pedersen ´was her husband. Christiana is a description of her religion, it is not her name. Her name was possibly Cecilie but it is very uncertain, this make her whole name NN and her husband's name Niels Pedersen.

Try to translate the sentence from latin into english, then you wil get this:

"The Christian wife of the deceased Nicholas Chamberlain"

She was a christian, it was her religion, it was not her name.
"Nicholas" is the old latin way of writing Niels,
and Niels Pedersen (N Pætersun) was a chamberlain as profesion, it was not his name.

relicta dn. N. Pætersun quondam regis camererii
(widow of our lord. N., Petersen, former king's chamberlain.)

Thank you, AM. I have been working intensely on many Latin translations recently and have studied Latin and have come across this formula several times in medieval documents. In fact, I was working on one yesterday regarding the d'Aubigny family--

"Willielmus de Albiniaco tertius" donated "ecclesiam de Redmelina" to Belvoir monastery, Lincolnshire, for the souls of "Agayjæ uxoris meæ et…Margeriæ quondam uxoris meæ"

This last line translates as "Agatha my wife and Margery my former wife"

The "Camerarius" may well have been an occupational name for Nicholas the Chamberlain, but it later in the middle ages did become a surname as evidenced by these famous persons: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joachim_Camerarius, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rudolf_Jakob_Camerarius

Based upon my experience with the Latin, and also with the not infrequent finding of the given name Christiana in the 11th century, I still stand by my translation that she was Christiana, former wife of Nicholas Camerarius or the Chamberlain. You may translate the Latin Nicholas into the local language as Niels. I do not believe that Christiana was a description of her religion but that it was her given name.

In that period "christiana", was an important INFORMATION about a person, (this form used for a woman in a sentence), because:

"Christianization of Denmark or Religion shift in Denmark was the lengthy process that led to the traditional Nordic religion was replaced by Christianity as the dominant religion in Denmark. In the period from about 700 to 1300 e.v.t. There was a profound cultural change in the country since the traditional tribal society was replaced by a more centralized royal power."

Could it not have been a given name based upon her religion? What we are looking for is what she was called. Based upon the Latin construction, it appears that she was called Christiana. If you have evidence that she was called something else, such as Cecilie, we can also include that. What we want to do is to include as much information as possible in the name field given the paucity of information that we have available. What I recommend is that we leave it as Christiana and then you may indicate in a discussion in the About Me section any questions or controversy about her name, along with the sources and documentation that provide evidence.