Wikipedia

I propose this paragraph as the "naming convention" for Anglo Americans:

In England and cultures derived from there, there has long been a tradition for a woman to change her surname upon marriage from her birth name to her husband's last name. From the first known US instance of a woman keeping her birth name, Lucy Stone in 1855, there has been a general increase in the rate of women keeping their original name. This has gone through periods of flux, however, and the 1990s saw a decline in the percentage of name retention among women. As of 2004, roughly 90% of American women automatically assumed their husband's surname upon getting married.[8] Even in families where the wife has kept her birth name, parents traditionally choose to give their children their father's family name. In America, married women are traditionally known as Mrs [Husband's full name] however in modern times are more commonly known as Mrs [Husband's last name].

n some jurisdictions, a woman's legal name used to change automatically upon marriage. That change is no longer a requirement, but women may still easily change to their husband's surname. Upon marriage, men in the United States can easily change their surname with the federal government, through the Social Security Administration, but may face difficulty on the state level in some states. In some places, civil rights lawsuits or constitutional amendments changed the law so that men could also easily change their married names (e.g., in British Columbia and California).[9] (Note: many Anglophone countries are also common-law countries.)

And this:

Historically, a woman in England would assume her new husband's family name (or surname) after marriage, and this remains common practice in the United Kingdom today as well as in common law countries and countries where English is spoken, including Australia, New Zealand, Pakistan, Gibraltar, Falkland Islands, Ireland, India, the English-speaking provinces of Canada, and the United States.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Married_and_maiden_names#English-speak...

Ben and Erica, It'd be great if you could breakdown your thoughts and ideas into concise bulletpoints.

You are right.

I started it earlier today, and will take another stab and finalize tomorrow.

I also want to be clearer on dates / places, such as when middle names started to be used when and where in the Anglo American trees.

Awesome! I added a section for area specific rules. Feel free to add to the project page. I want this to be an organic collaborative process.

The names and family names standartization will be very helpful in looking for the relatives in Geni, but..
If the person moved from one country to another with different language the name will change somehow. The issue well known with jewish names, for example: Shmuel(heb)-Samuel or Sam(eng) -Samuil(rus)... etc. So, which name shall be set in Geni? The problem when possible relatives know only one of the names.
The situation with family names in this case much more complicated. Example: Gorodetsky(rus) - Tsuk(heb).

@Nina, I usually solve this (for the time being) using the name they went by growing up in the first, middle, and last name fields and the name they went by later in life in the display name.

Full Name: Jolán (Jolánta) Árpád-házi, aragóniai királyné
Display Name: Biolán d'Hongría, Reina consort d'Aragón

http://www.geni.com/people/Biol%C3%A1n-d-Hongr%C3%ADa-Reina-consort...

Sorry Victar,
My impression was that we need to make ti simpler, but I am also quite puzzled with the title Coalition….. (long and complicated )?
Is it about defining (simple and understandable) rules how to enter data that will be agreeable with different cultures? If it is for linguists and standardisation specialists, with intention of transferring it to the general public later, then maybe this is the good way to go and I will leave it up to others to participate. I am neither a linguist nor a standardisation specialist, but as an analyst I can look at the problem and define requirements. The requirements should be driven with solution to current problems and how to overcome them. So the first thing would be to agree on what those problems are.

For me, (ie Croatian users) there are no problems of the kind that I have encountered in ‘the big tree’, simply because we have come up with the rules and everyone is following them as they fit well with the culture, language and history.
The problem I have is the alternative ways of spelling names. In most cases I don’t know what to look for (sometimes the answer is in Wikipedia where I can find alternative names) even for people that I am very familiar with (for example Dioklecijan that I found today – he might have been Roman, but is certainly part of my heritage, if nothing else I was born in his palace).

The way I see it
1) we have currently
a. first name
b. middle name
c. surname: maiden + married (2 fields)
d. suffix
e. display name
2) what we need
a. first name – option to enter alternative versions of the same name – all searchable
b. middle name – does not do much for me – I think it is not helping at all as you can’t see it during merge process, could be used for titles
c. surname: maiden + married (2 fields) – both needed
d. suffix, same as middle name, not useful
e. display name – should be constructed based on users own settings and choice to accommodate the variety we obviously have

For me that would mean to add additional fields (searchable) to the name fields so we can enter versions of names in different languages (with some code specifying which language it is). Geni could then have options under settings so each user can choose what they like and are used to, without limiting others to use their own conventions. The name stays the same, but it gets displayed depending on country, language, culture or simply users own preference (casual users vs hard core genealogists).

Jadranka, would you mind if I (or you) cut and pasted the last bit of your extremely cogent post - to the discussion I iniated about suggestions to the Geni programmers, as I think it is pertinent.

Jadranka, it is a great idea to leave only personal, family and maiden name with the possibility to add such sets for different languages, searchable according to language definition. English shall be the first and mandatory, other languages - optional.
According to second name - in Russian it generally used as paternal name, so Russian profiles have duplicated information. But paternal name sometimes not equal to the name of father.
example: Alexey Peshkov has a nic Maxim Gorky. His children has paternal name Maxim(ovich) and the family name Peshkov. His first name Alexey.
btw, what about the nics? Sometimes they become a family names of the next generation or it's part? Is the special field for nic needed?

Jadranka and Sharon, I certainly agree that Geni needs to revamp profiles to allow for alternative names. Such a system is a long ways off, though I know it is on the Geni road-map.

Until then however, we need to focus on making the best of what we have now.

Nina,
Why should English be the first and mandatory? If it is related to English speaking countries, but not direcly, I would put it as an option.
I hope you did not mean that English should be a first option for Croatian (or any other non-English speaking country) peoples' profiles

Hi Victar:

Bullet points? The only bullet point I had was that the family name page on Wikipedia provides pretty good guidance as to how to handle last names. The naming should reflect the reality of the individual, for the culture and time period that the person lived and died in. For most profiles, that's pretty easy to determine. For a few others, it's a judgement call. Always refer to known documentation.

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Hi Nina:

You make several assertions, I'll try to respond to them in turn.

I'd disagree that the English name of an individual should be the first and mandatory. First and mandatory language should relate to the target language of the likely individuals referring to them. Modern names are pretty easy to work with on that one - Russian should be primary for Russians, Belarusian for Belarusians, Chinese for Chinese, etc. In such cases, English should be the optional.

As to the Russian patronym, yes, they almost always were equivalent to the father. I think there was a rule for when the father wasn't known, but I don't remember it and it would be best to simply look it up. Maybe after coffee.

As to the example of Maxim Gorky - that's what is called a nom de plume, not a patronym. Sort of like with Criss Angel, aka Mindfreak. Angel is not his birth name, it's Christopher Nicholas Sarantakos. In such instances, I'd place the birth name in the first-middle-last field, and use the display field for the stage name.

As to changes to the family name, I generally try to use whatever is documented. Sometimes changes to names are problematic. In both known Huguenots in my family, their names changed as soon as the crossed out of France and made their way to the New World. The de La Chaumette name changed into several different spellings as a result - Shumate, Shumake, and the one that stuck with the one that married into what eventually became the Malotts, Delashmutt. And the Malotts - I've been accused (in joke of course) of being drunk while naming them according to the best known documentation, as for the first few generations in America the family name seemed to change with each generation. It originally started with the name Merle or Marle.

This posting is probably long enough. Time for coffee...

Hi Jadranka:

Standardization specialist? I have to admit, I almost asked under what ISO standard we are forming this "coalition" as well. :)

I would almost concur with you on the naming fields, but some cultures make this problematic. Take for instance here in Chile. The standard is to use the father's "apellido" (paternal only) and the mother's "apellido" (paternal only) and combine them into a two-worded last name. Apparently that was kind of standard for family names traditionally across the Spanish-speaking world. Research on my father's side of the family shows this to have changed with the annexation of New Mexico into the United States. One ancestor insisted on being called de la Cruz Salazar in the censuses following annexation. Oddly enough, I think his daughter was stuck with Salazar on her marriage certificate. In accordance with American naming rules, her name became Angel after marriage (documented by later censuses, not imposed by me). Philippine names followed the same pattern - after the US occupation, the standard became to follow the US naming pattern, rather than the Spanish.

Then there is the real elephant in the room, or so it would seem to me.. what do we do about the Asian names. Standard for almost all Asian countries is to put the family name first, then the individual name last. A random example - Tokugawa Hidetada, ruled 1605 to 1623 - his father's name was Tokugawa Ieyasu, and his son and success was Tokugawa Iemitsu. I suspect that the naming rules are even more complicated under traditional Japanese naming, but I opted for a simple example here.

When you consider the number of people from China that might eventually become interested in using Geni as a platform for organizing their tree, this becomes problematic.

And hopefully Asians will be able to weigh in with their solutions and workarounds.

I've seen some elegant ones from users where they adapt something similar to what's used in the biblical tree.

Meanwhile, I think we need to:

- do break out threads by language ... and then within the thread ? by country
- walk thru some cases
- come up with easy chunks for reference and guides, hopefully something we can copy & paste from the Geni Community Wiki

Or should it be by country and then by language? Hmm. We need tables (not yet implemented in Projects).

The main solution to the Asian problem that I would see would be a tech solution, allowing for Asian formatting. I'm not sure that the platform would become popular unless there was a way to conform it to their standards first, at least to my understanding.

Jadranka,
my relatives live in different countries at least 100 years and speak different languages. So happend that English look the only mutual language we can use to exchange information (btw, my native lang is Russian). There is a lot of info in English, - much more than in any other language. The search algoritms also work in English better, than in other language.

Ben,
about native language: let's take the person born in Belorussia, learned in Ukraine, evacuated to Kazahstan, then lived in Russia, moved to Israel and finally - to French Canada. Shall I add that the source of the family name was Spanish? Which language shall be primary?
It was the migration not only of the people themselves but of families and even groups of families at least from the end of 19-th century till the end of 20th.
We use geni to restore and research the connection between family members, separated for several generations. It will be impossible without one mandatory language. Esperanto?

Well, your point is the common language used *first* and the original language second.

So if your global family finds English most convenient for the most, use it. For those within, say, Chile, use Spanish.

Maybe we can distill this down to a "guiding principle."

What shall I do with the small willages names, which not defined in somewhat Geni "list of places"? It frequently not shown in person profile after I enter the information to details. The willages which were in XIX century not exist now, - they became the part of somewhat big town or simply disappear.

Sorry, according to mutual languauge: if we use geni to put separate family trees, - the language is the inner case of the family. But somewhat mutual language needed to join the trees if required. The solution can be somewhat built-in transliteration tool to recognize the family in any language.
btw, why this discussion in English? It is not a native language for most of us. :))

Are you familiar with the translation device built within Geni? So you can view in one of the 20 languages available ... and Victar has a translation project to improve and build out more.

With small villages, just type it in in the location field after hitting "edit" so you don't engage the auto-complete module. It will accept whatever values are input.

For places that no longer exist, add something like "present day Lithuania" to help keep people oriented. Ben Angel does this quite well and and can show you examples.

Nina:

Interesting example. My wife is actually from Belarus (that's the country's post 1991 name, both in English and its Latin-transliterated Russian and Belarusian form). Though Belarus uses both Russian and Belarusian (both are considered state languages, unlike in Ukraine where only Ukrainian is the state language, despite widespread use of Russian in the southern and eastern portions of the country), my family uses Belarusian and English, because those are the target languages representative of both halves of my family. If the roots of the Belarusian tree are extended eventually to include another family at some point, say a Russian family, then probably Russian will dominate in that upper portion of the tree, since both families are speakers.

Your example involving the use of a wholly unrelated language left me kind of puzzled. Would the people whom are interested in the particular ancestor be Spanish-speakers? Modern French-Canadians would probably use a transliterated version of the person's name, I would imagine. Not sure where Spanish plays into it.

You'll have to clarify where you were going with that example, as I don't think I suggested that a non-target language be used. That would be like taking a Chinese-American family and transliterating them into Russian, it would seem to me, which is not what I would recommend at all.

Usually I would use something like Wilno (Present Vilnius), Poland (Present Lithuania), to indicate a shifted border or changed state.

so, the conclusion about language:
1. required separate subset of Name, Family Name, etc.. (main data) for any language with language definition
2. no need in mandatory language
3. profile manager(s) define how many sets needed (unlimited number)
4. nice to have transliteration recommendations when new language added
5. Name search will be on fields according to search request language (or transliteration needed if profile without the set on search request language?)

Wilno (Present Vilnius), Poland (Present Lithuania) is a very ugly and confusing solution. I definitely wouldn't recommend that.

It should be simple, in whichever country the place is now - too many people have died over this.
Members of my family have lived in 3 or 4 countries without ever leaving their home and the change was alway associated with the war.
Current borders should be respected, otherwise we will end up arguing who ruled that piece of country at which time in history

So how would you describe the location? No one uses Wilno anymore, and since about 1939 it's not been part of Poland. But that's what it would have been called and what would have been on the document you used to prove a birth or marriage.

Oftentimes a translation of what the name was at the time of the event to what it is today is vital for figuring out exactly where something happened. If you'd have seen how many times Pannonia was placed in Germany or Ukraine, instead of present Hungary where it generally belongs...

Further, this gives a sense of the life of the ancestor... our oldest living family member was born in the German occupied zone of the Russian Empire (1915, near Lida). It is presently part of Belarus. You'd never get that by putting down only the present name (and you'd miss out on a lot of the history of the area in her time just doing that), and you'd start looking in Russia if you put down Russian Empire. In my mind, my solution is much clearer for regions where the border shifts or the states change.