Persdotters and unknown Elizabeth

Started by Amanda Torrey (Moyer) on today
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Today at 12:45 PM

Erica Howton asks:

What evidence is there she was anywhere near the West Indies?

When you’re dealing with mtDNA you don’t have dates to anchor the match distance, right?

Today at 12:49 PM

This was in response to me theorizing Elizabeth was either born or was a product of the South Carolina trade in the West Indies:

@ Erica Howton

My response:

1) The reason atDNA is important is because it gives the connection to the more immeidate people and places to begin looking for the paper.

2) For me, our Autosomal DNA takes us to the mid 18th century. 3.0 is as far back you can go to find those connections - In Elizabeth's case I MIGHT find DNA evidence for me since before 1750. Though we could push mtDNA evidence back 20 generations, we would not be able to take autosomal connections back any further back than that.

3) Charleston was the British port and strongest connection with the French West Indies as the French were colonizing those islands at that time. In 1750 Charleston was the "faucet"? between the colonies and the Islands as a source for slaves and sugar.

4) Elizabeth could easily have met and married Emanuel just before the war in Charleston. I haven't found any military records for Emanuel, but it looks to many that Scots immigrated into the United States from Scotland and Ulster Ireland to North Carolina and then immigrated south to South Carolina. That's the story for the McElveens - There are reasons to believe Richard Harvey might have been Emanuel's brother - and he might have joined the forces in SC. That's a whole other can of worms that I don't want to focus on now.

5) The book, "Study of Bulloch County, p. 16" it says William McElveen was one of the first to settle in Bulloch in 1787. He was discharged in the 1780s from the company in South Carolina. He married Elizabeth and Emanuel's youngest daughter (position of child in that family needs further research), but her sister was Martha Sheffiled. An 1850 Census says she was 72 at the time. That would put her birthday around 1777. That would put Elizabeth reasonably around 25-30 years old which is on track for a 3rd child.

6) That could make Susannah's birthday around 1780. She married William in 1804. William already had property then. But, it would seem less likely that Elizabeth's children were born in Georgia. William was born in Williamsburg and was the oldest son to a plantation owner just outside of Charleston.

7) back to the West Indies. The French sold St. Barthelmy to the Swedish in the 1780s. That's a little late for our story but possible. Elizabeth's parents would have been one generation earlier to make it a fit. The French immigrated to St. Thomas before 1780, but St. Domingue (Haiti) was close and THE PEARL of trade in sugar and slaves.

8) Claude (our frenchman above) would have made his autosomal connection about this time. 3.0 cM on 11 chromosomes would have brought him in contact with me and Paul in the 1750s.

9) Paul's autosomal connection with me and Claude is around 1750.

10) This gives ample opportunity for Elizabeth's parents (at least her mother) to have Elizabeth somewhere there around Charleston in the midst of the trade with the West Indies at the height of the slave/sugar trade.

11) Catharina Persdotter was born 1748 in Sweden. Elizabeth and Catharina may not be sisters, but first cousins and Cahtarina's uncle the Mariner?

it's close...but this is where I begin looking for paper.

Today at 1:28 PM

I’m combining earlier private email response with fresh notes.

First, we’re talking about
https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Persdotter-7748
Catharina Persdotter
Born 28 Sep 1748 in Landeryd, Östergötland, Sweden
Daughter of [father unknown] and [mother unknown]
[sibling%28s%29 unknown]
Wife of Bengt Larsson — married [date unknown] in Skeda, Östergötland, Sweden
DESCENDANTS descendants
Mother of Cathrina Bengtsdotter
Died 9 Sep 1813 at age 64 in Bankekind, Östergötland, Sweden

Who is related to https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Sorensen-4427. Paul Sorensen

And you, Amanda, are related to Paul, but you all don’t have a paper trail. He’s American but luckily has a good Swedish-origin tree, I take it. Ooo, He’s a cousin of Greta Garbo! So good looks run in the family. :).

Earlier response:

My first caveat is that I’m not particularly good at using DNA tests. But a 3.0 cm match atDNA is much further than I’d push it. I’m 49% Ashkenazi Jewish and the endogamy is through the roof; no way I’d gain any insight at less than 7.0. The other side is mostly Southern USA and mostly maps England (much less Scots than I would think from someone with proven Cunningham and Ross) and included some Scandinavian, at some point; I’d have to check. So where did the possible Scandinavian come from? Vikings in England in the Dark Ages is more likely, for me.

Anyway, the idea that your Swedish connection comes through the West Indies to Charleston is interesting. The match to Catharina Persdotter Born 28 Sep 1748 in Landeryd, Östergötland, Sweden could be ruled in / out of relevance by whether people in her region emigrated there. But I find it extremely unlikely Elizabeth herself was a sister. I don’t know the history / migration patterns well enough to comment further.

I do know New Sweden colony history better. If you postulate Elizabeth as more distantly Swedish, it’s more likely to find a paper trail.

Today at 2:30 PM

The New Settlers was Paul's first go-to place when we first began communicating. I went down the list of Swedish colonists and found 1 in-law connection with my Salburger family. I was too foolish to record my finds and put them here as I did with https://www.geni.com/projects/Eidsberg-og-indre-Smaalenene-kjente-p... that I posted below under the project heading REFERENCE SCANDINAVIAN PROFILES for UNKNOWN ELIZABETH where the path is clearly marked between me and the profile indicated. But let's just say for the sake of argument that I'm being honest and had very few traces of the New Settlement.

Today is New Years and apparently the projects in Family Tree DNA is not very accessible. I went into the board for H1-C16239T and gave the gedmatch and the exact match information between me and Paul. I can try again to reach my question and the response. The person that responded to my question was not going to give a solid yes/no response but they did say that an exact match with atDNA match with 3.0cM+ on 11 chromosomes was NOT a COINCIDENCE and worth further research up the maternal line and Paul and I should expect a person to appear on our trees within the next generation or 2. .

What made this even more interesting is Claude who did not have a mtDNA test done, but his atDNA was close to the same as what Paul and I experienced. Claude is from France. As there is no evidence in our trees of a reslationship, only in the tests, I'm thinking we could look at an uncle with the ancestor presently appearing being a cousin, not a sibling.

The 3d person from France is what makes the event here relevant.

Since New Sweden didn't pan out and in fact my ancestor is from a southern colony, and we have a Swedish heritage with a strong French mix, there is a likelihood of a Swedish person mixing with a French colonist. The Swede would be the mother because the genetic information for mtDNA goes down mother to daughter - right?

So before we look closer at Haiti, where is Landeryd, Östergötland, Sweden? and if that's not a maritime province, then we can still look toward a merchant uncle?

Today at 2:33 PM

Erica with over 8,000 profiles she's curator predictably has a lot of mail. :) I'll check back in a couple of days.

Today at 4:18 PM

Why do you think all the New Sweden descent has been found and ruled out?

You’d need to inquire of Swedish people about geography. Perhaps a post at “curators please assist” asking for a recommendation on time and place expertise.

My couple of Swedish collaborators are working on 19th century.

I think your problem is chronology. I’m not doubting the ethnicity or the matching, but I’m totally doubting the “when.”

Meanwhile, read up on Swedes in the Caribbean.

Today at 4:20 PM

Also, why does it have to be a French / Swede? French could be one stream, Swedish another, yes?

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