Margaret de Vere (Stafford) - Margaret Stafford and George de Vere issues

Mike Stangel forwarded a message from someone who isn’t a Geni user — “The Geni profile, has to be total nonsense, she is said to have been borne 5 years after her fathers death, there is no apparent source for her within the suggested parentage and her stated child, John de Vere 14th Earl of Oxford has a clearly defined “other” mother.”

This is indeed true. Things need to be untangled, and it is not a simple fix.

As we have it, Margaret Stafford, the daughter of Sir William Stafford of Hook and Southwick, and Catherine Chidiok, is married to Sir George de Vere, the son of John de Vere, the 12th Earl of Oxford and Elizabeth Howard. Sir George is also married to Margaret Talbot.

What I’ve found so far:

The Overview for Sir George de Vere, Kt. — Margaret’s current husband on Geni — links to Wikipedia, which states that Sir George de Vere married Margaret Stafford, the daughter of Sir William Stafford of Bishop’s Frome (no mother stated). That info appears on the page for John de Vere, 12th Earl of Oxford, George’s father. Elizabeth Howard is given as Sir George’s mother. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_de_Vere,_12th_Earl_of_Oxford — it’s a page with numerous citations to reputable sources.

The Overview also links to Wikitree — https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/De_Vere-149 which gives what we have as well, along with George’s other wife Margaret Talbot. citing, besides Wikipedia, Burke’s Peerage, and a family web tree page which now no longer exists.

So all of that is very well and good, and our version of events appears to be backed up by a well-sourced Wikipedia page and Burke’s Peerage.

However.

Stirnet (paywall, alas) gives Margaret Stafford, the daughter of William Stafford of Bishop’s Frome, who died before 1487, and Elizabeth Wrottesley, the daughter of Hugh Wrottesley and Thomasine Greeley — and that Margaret Stafford is married to Sir George de Vere of Earls Colne, who died in 1503. Going to that George de Vere, we see that he is the son of John de Vere, 12th Earl of Oxford, and Elizabeth Talbot. The Stirnet page with George’s tree — https://www.stirnet.com/genie/data/british/uv/vere2.php#top — The Stirnet page with Margaret’s tree — https://www.stirnet.com/genie/data/british/ss4tz/stafford03.php#willbf

About William Stafford of Bishop’s Frome, Stirnet says: “ Some web sites identify William as the same person as William Stafford of Hook & Southwick, but for the reasons explained above (where we show that William), that must be incorrect. Some web sites show him as a younger brother of Henry, 2nd Duke of Buckingham, but that Henry was born posthumously which makes that seem even more unlikely!”

The reasons that they give “above” for William Stafford of Hook and Southwick are: “ Some web sites identify this William as the William of Bishop's Frome (whom we show below) who was father of Margaret who married Sir George Vere and was mother of John, 14th Earl of Oxford, and others. However, TCP (Devon) reports that the heirs of his son Humphrey were Humphrey's cousins, the 3 daughers of his aunt Alice, which suggests that he had no sister who had issue.” (TCP is The Complete Peerage.)

William Stafford of Hook and Southwick, by the way, who died in 1450, is, in Stirnet, the son of Sir Humphrey Stafford of Hooke, who died in 1452, and Elizabeth Maltravers.

All righty then!

Here are our players, as they appear on Geni at the time of this writing:

Margaret de Vere

Sir William Stafford of Hook and Southwick

Lady Catherine Stafford

Sir George de Vere, Kt.

John de Vere, 12th Earl of Oxford

Elizabeth de Vere

That’s the tree as we have it. Other players, as mentioned on Stirnet:

Sir Humphrey Stafford, Knight

Elizabeth Stafford

Sir William Stafford of Hook and Southwick

Lady Catherine Stafford

That’s the family that Stirnet gives for William Stafford of Hook and Southwick, NOT the father of Margaret. Stafford.

And we have:

Humphrey Stafford — this would be Humphrey Stafford of Bishop’s Frome, married to

Margaret Stafford

And according to Stirnet, they are the parents of the Margaret Stafford married to George de Vere who is the son of John, the 12th Earl of Oxford — this Margaret Stafford is not on Geni at this time; the Margaret Stafford that we have did not exist; William Stafford and Elizabeth Chidiock did not have a daughter named Margaret

There are of course other sources, but the crux of the issue is that two William Staffords appear to have been, sort of across the board, switched.

If we appear to reach an agreement that that’s true, I’m willing to do the work, which will involve moving profiles around, changing some info, and writing lots of curator’s notes and Explanations In Overviews.

I now hand this all over, hoping that I made things more clear than murky.