Margery verch Gruffydd - Margery verch Gruffydd

Colin Henshaw

5/22/2023 at 8:56 AM

I decided to check out this lady who ostensibly married Sir John Arderne of Aldford c1266 - June 1st 1308. I found a link on Wikitree for him and Margery verch Gruffydd. I decided to contact someone who was well versed in welsh genealogies.

It seems the connection here is bogus, therefore any purported lineages that include Margey verch Gruffydd are therefore invalidated. Here is his response:

The link made by the Wiki pedigree is bogus. Some modern person decided that "Lord Griffin of Bromfield" whose daughter, Margaret married a John Arderne, was Gruffudd Maelor II ap Madog ap Gruffudd Maelor. But that Gruffudd Maelor II was born c. 1195 and married the Audley lady, born c. 1210. They could not have had any daughter born c 1261 I have no idea who that "Lord Griffin" was, but had to be someone born a full generation later than Gruffudd Maelor II.

This is the third time I have had to call out a supposed ancestor on geni.com, and it begs the question as to how reliable are the others.

Private User

5/22/2023 at 10:42 AM

This is the page from Bartrum's Welsh Genealogies concerning this family -- https://www.geni.com/documents/view?doc_id=6000000173378114946

And Margery's father, Gruffudd Maelor II, died, according to Bartrum, in 1289.

Gruffudd Maelor I (he's up at the top of the page) died in 1191.

(This isn't some modern person making things up -- Bartrum was working with the surviving Welsh manuscripts)

However, Bartrum does question the connection, and her birthdate is well after a brother's. This would mean that the Welsh manuscripts give the connection, but it's problematic. So it's one of the many inherited problems in the Welsh Genealogies.

Steven Mitchell Ferry -- does Wolcott untangle this chronology?

Steven Mitchell Ferry C

5/22/2023 at 11:52 AM

Private User Not in any published work that I am aware of. Colin Henshaw Is that Darrell Wolcott who you were corresponding with?

In the Bartrum chart, Bartrum is definitely discounting the connection, but not totally rejecting it. The dates for Sir John definitely put him early in Gen 8, and you would expect his wife to be born slightly later than him (15 year difference is average for the Welsh at this time) making her Gen 8 as well. Not suitable as a daughter for Gen 6 parents.

Our practice, at this time, with the Bartrum charts is to put them into Geni as he drew them, unless we have evidence to the contrary. That is where Mr. Wolcott comes in. I study his papers and translate those to Geni, correcting Bartrum as necessary.

So yes, there may be some unreliable lines at this time. But genealogy, particularly the Welsh kind, is fluid. Even Wolcott has to rearrange his charts from time to time as his study indicates improved connections. Remember, we are dealing with lines that are several hundred years old, pieced together from family records and recollections. And those often conflict with each other.

Colin Henshaw

5/22/2023 at 2:44 PM

Hello Steven,

Yes, it was Darrell Walcott. I have just written back to him having found this:

https://www.thornber.net/cheshire/htmlfiles/stockport.html

".... Sir Peter de Arderne, knight, Lord of Alvanley and Aldford. (Also of Adlerley according to Earwarker). Obtained the present arms in 17 Edw. 1 and inquistion post mortem in 20 Edw. 1 (1292 )
+ Margery. In addition to their son John this couple also had Agnes de Arderne who married William Mesnilwarin (Mainwaring) of Warmincham.
7. Sir John de Arderne of Aldford, Alderley, Alvanley and Elford, knight, born 1266 and died about 1308.
+ Margaret, (or Margery according to Earwaker) daughter of Griffith ap Madog, Lord of Bromfield and prince of Powis Vagog. Marraige between between 1267 to 1270
8. Sir John de Arderne of Aldford, Alvanley (and Elford according to Earwaker) knight of the shire for Stafford in 1324, inquisition post mortem (1349). He married three times, the third time to a former mistress with whom he had two illegitimate sons and three illegitimate daughters. Through his second wife he held the manors of Stockport, Poynton and Woodford for life.

Might this now increase the credibility of Margery verch Gruffydd?

Many thanks, Anne and Steven, for your input.

Steven Mitchell Ferry C

5/22/2023 at 3:08 PM

I tend to stay away from sites like that, unless they have sources cited that I can check for myself. You may hear this from Darrell:

Those who work in the Welsh genealogies should avoid the English lines, and those who study the English lines should avoid the Welsh.

Makes it hard when you're dealing with border families.

Ingrīda Cinkmane (Dzelvīte)

5/23/2023 at 2:01 AM

Margery verch Gruffydd is your 11th cousin 12 times removed.

Colin Henshaw

5/23/2023 at 3:40 AM

Hello Steve,

Had another response from Darrell Walcott:

"This might have been the writer who made the wrong identification of "Lord Griffen of Bromfield". I remain of the belief that NO English genealogists are qualified to write about Welsh marriages. To the English, a pedigree was merely for bragging rights and social standing, it had no legal significance. To the Welsh, their pedigree was their legal claim to tribal land.

Serious Welsh scholars do not consider works like this to be a credible source of Welsh genealogies. Most English pedigrees contain "lily-guilding" and even "boasting", both considered to be fair sport. The timeline rejects this identification of the lady that John Arderne married. But it DID enhance the social value of his pedigree by making the lady a daughter of a Welsh prince. Griffith was as common a male name to the Welsh as John was to the English."

It seems he is calling into question the marriage between Sir John Arderne and Margery verch Gruffudd, suggesting that English pedigrees are boasting. He may or may not be right. The lineage of Margery verch Gruffydd on geni.com goes all the way back through Welsh kings to Coel Hen. How likely is this to be historically correct?

Margery verch Gruffydd - Margery verch Gruffydd

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