Philip I see the first inbox message about this from you in my inbox today.

Easier to have the discussion here for all to see. It's useful if there are other people who are interested to jump in and help research, that they know it's happening.

Of the two docs you uploaded:

• The one doc is blank.
• I need to know of what the other doc is a screenshot, before we can go anywhere with that.

That doesn't make it wrong - it just doesn't have evidence validity as it stands.

So this what we were working from:

From the Charters of Clackmannan

8th March, 1428— Charter of Confirmation of John Bruce of Rate and Clackmannan, ratifying and confirming the Charter No. 9, granted by his grandfather, Robert de Bruys, to his son Thomas de Bruys, of the lands of Wester Kennet, &c.

22d Dec, 1447— Discharged by John de Bruce of Clackmannan to his eldest cousin, David, the Bruce of the Kennet, of the sum of 50 merks money of Scotland, addebted to the said John the Bruce, by Peter the Bruce, grandfather of the above-mentioned David.

26th March 1473— Crown Charter of Resignation and Confirmation by King James III., to David Bruce, son, and apparent heir to John Bruce of Clackmannan, of the lands and Barony of Clackmannan and pertinents thereof, lying in the county of Clackmannan, and the lands and Barony of Rait lying in the county of Perth, proceeding on the Procuratory of Resignation, granted by the said John Bruce. To be holden by the above mentioned David Bruce, his heirs of the King, and his successors in fee and heritage for payment, and performance of services used and wont ; but reserving to the said John Bruce his liferent of the said Baronies,
and the third thereof to Elizabeth Stewart, his wife.

20th March 1478— Charter by David Bruce of Clackmannan to Andrew Meffane and Margaret his spouse, of a tenement Yard and Croft with pasturage of a cow.

John Bruce of Clackmannan, for the purpose of insuring the recognition of his son David as the next proprietor, resigns his right to the King, who bestows it on David under reservation of John Bruce's liferent. The 1478 doc shows that John Bruce died between 1473 and 1478, for David now exercises the full rights of a proprietor.

https://archive.org/stream/collectionstowar1868clac/collectionstowa...

You ned to give us a link to the John Bruce of Green to whom you are referring.

cf Elizabeth Stewart of Rossyth

Philip Paul BRUCE
27/12/2020 at 6:31 PM

Here is the Charter:No 16 .22 Dec 1447- Discharge by John Bruce of Clackmannan to his eldest cousin David the Bruce of the Kennet
The charters go on to say, No 24 :1490-Instrument of Sasine in favour of David Bruce as heir to David Bruce of Wester Kennet.
Goes on to say, David Bruce 1st died between 1480-1490 and was succeeded by his son David Bruce 2nd (Kennet). Agnes Redbeugh-spouse of deceased David Bruce, David Bruce second wife was Margaret Harries.

Philip Paul BRUCE
27/12/2020 at 9:36 AM

In the charters of Clackmannan John Bruce father is given as Patrick Bruce of Green, who's father is given as David Bruce of Green.
It's also stated that Peter Bruce was the foster father of David Bruce in the discharge of John Bruce of the Baroncy of Clackmannan to the heir David Bruce 6th Baron of Clackmannan, who's father is Robert Bruce and mother Annabella Rachel Scrymgeour.
The Chamber's encyclopaedia has the line as this as has the Charters of Clackmannan.
Following the Baroncy numbering is incorrect

cf David Bruce, of Wester Kennet (snr)

cf we have
NN son of Peter & father of David Bruce, of Kennet

• David Bruce, of Wester Kennet (snr) x Agnes Redheugh
  • David Bruce, of Wester Kennet (jnr)

following this - perhaps incorrectly:

22d Dec, 1447 — Discharged by John de Bruce of Clackmannan to his eldest cousin, David, the Bruce of the Kennet, of the sum of 50 merks money of Scotland, addebted to the said John the Bruce, by Peter the Bruce, grandfather of the above-mentioned David.

Sir John Bruce, 5th Baron of Clackmannan & Rait x Elizabeth Stewart of Rossyth

• Sir David Bruce, 6th Baron of Clackmannan & Rate x Janet Stirling, of Keir xx Mariot "Marion" Herries

Sir Robert Bruce, 2nd Baron Clackmannan & Rate; proprietor of lands of Kennet x Isobell Stewart

• Sir Robert Bruce, 3rd Baron of Clackmannan x Annabelle Scrymgeour xx 2nd Wife Bruce
  • Sir David Bruce, 4th Baron of Clackmannan x Jean Stewart

From the Charters of Clackmannen

2 May 1389
Thomas obtains Kennet from his father .— Charter of Robert de Bruys of Clackmannan and Rate to and in favour of Thomas de Bruys, his son, where- by " for good services" he grants the said Thomas the lands of Wester Kennet and others for payment to his said father of a silver penny yearly. In the history of Noble British Families, part 3, p. 15, it is stated that Robert de Bruce died about this period, and the next Charters of resignation were probably made by the possessor of the estate on succeeding thereto. [WHY, THO?]

4th Oct., 1393 — Crown Charter of Resignation by King Robert III., proceeding on the Rocuratory of Resignation of Robert de Bruys, whereby the King new grants the lands and Barony of Clackmannan, and all the pertinents, to Robert de Bruys, whom failing, to David Bruys, his eldest son, and the heirs male, procreated or to be procreated, of his body, whom failing, to Thomas Bruys, also his son, and the heirs male of his body, to be held of the King and his successors in fee and heritage.

By this Charter, Robert deBruys had gone through the ceremony of resigning or giving them back to the King during his life, and the King then made a new grant of them to him, and his two sons, and their heirs male.

10th June, 1393 — Charter by Robert de Bruys, Lord of Rate and Clackmannan, to his " beloved son, Thomas de Bruys," and his heirs, and assigns of an annualent of ten merks, payable furth off his lands of Tullygarth, lying in the county of Clackmannan, and that in con- sideration of a certain sum of money paid to him, the said Robert de Bruys, in his urgent necessity. To be holden of the said Robert de Bruys and his heirs redeemable on payment of the sum of 25 merks.

18th February, 1399 — Crown Charter of Resignation and Confirmation by King Robert III., ratifying and confirming the Char- ter No. 9, granted by Robert de Bruys to his son, Thomas, of the lands of Wester Kennet, Pitfoulden, and the Cruikitland, all lying in the county of Clackmannan. From this time the estate of Kennet con- tinued separate from that of Clackmannan, and although the families continued on the most intimate terms, and the heiress of Kennet, in 1568, married one of the cadets of Clackmannan, the estates have never been united.

24th Sept 1423 Instrument of Sasine in favour of Peter or Patrick de Bruys, in the lands of Wester Kennet, in the Barony of Graysmenstone and county of Clackmannan, proceeding on the precept contained in No. 13, to which Peter Bruys had acquired right as heir to his father, sasine given by John de Bruce, Lord of Clackmannan, in presence of Sir David Stuart of Durrisdeer, knight, Robert Merce.. Etc The Sir David Stewart of Durrisdeer,who appears as a witness, appears to have been of the Rossyth family, and was closely related to the Bruces.

8th July, 1449— Charter by Allan de Kinnaird of that Ilk to Patrick Bruce, son of the deceased David Bruce of Clackmannan, knight, of the lands of Hayle, in the Barony of Kinnaird and county of Perth, and that in consideration of a certain sum of money paid to him by the said Patrick Bruce. To be holden of the said Allan de Kinnaird in fee and heritage for payment of a silver penny at the feast of Pentecost, yearly, in name of Blench form, if asked only.

https://archive.org/stream/collectionstowar1868clac/collectionstowa...