Margaret de Seton, heiress of Seton - Overview is no longer accurate

From the profile for Sir Alexander Seton, V

http://quod.lib.umich.edu/e/ecco/004896980.0001.000/1:253?rgn=div1;...

He was afterwards one of the Scotch com∣missioners appointed to treat about king Da∣vid's liberty,* and is then designed dominus A∣lexander de Seaton, miles, anno 1348. He married Margaret, sister of William Murray,* captain of the castle of Edinburgh, by whom he had a son,

By his wife, Christian, daughter of Cheyne of Straloch, he [this Alexandar's father] had three sons and a daughter, namely,

1. Alexander, killed in opposing the landing of Edward Baliol near Kinghorn, 6th August 1332 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Wester_Kinghorn;
2. Thomas, already mentioned; and
3. William, drowned in an attack on the English fleet at Berwick, in sight of his father, in July 1333.
4. The daughter, Margaret, became heiress of Seton. She married Alan de Wyntoun, supposed to have been a cadet of the Seton family.

Source of above: Electricscotland.com - Google (17 July 2010)

A study of lost causes. By Sir Bruce Gordon Seton. Edinburgh : Lindsay and Macleod, 1939-1941. 2 volumes. Reproduced from typewriting. Vol, 1, Page 95, 96, 97, 98

https://digital.nls.uk/histories-of-scottish-families/archive/95447...

https://digital.nls.uk/histories-of-scottish-families/archive/95447...

https://digital.nls.uk/histories-of-scottish-families/archive/95447...

https://digital.nls.uk/histories-of-scottish-families/archive/95447...

Transcription in next message.

A study of lost causes. By Sir Bruce Gordon Seton. Edinburgh : Lindsay and Macleod, 1939-1941. 2 volumes. Reproduced from typewriting. House of Seton, Vol. 2, page 97-98. https://digital.nls.uk/95447891

There is a charter which appears to have been overlooked in this connection.

On 16th April 1346 Sir William Douglas of Liddesdale bound himself to make certain payments to "Sir"Alexander de Seton, Knight, Lord of that ilk", (i.e. to the Sir Alexander Seton quartus, who was defender of Berwick), in consideration of the marriage of "Alexander de Seton, son of umquhile (deceased) "Sir John de Seton, heir of the said Alexander" with Margaret, daughter of the deceased Sir William de Ruthven.

This charter obviously shows that, in April 1346, both the sons of old Sir Alexander, viz Sir Alexander quintus and Sir John, were dead; also that the heir male to the estate was then Alexander Seton, sextus ,son of Sir John.

Moreover, the fact of Alexander sextus being styled heir, also shows that Alexander quintus had left no male issue. But, as stated above, Alexander sextus himself died, or was killed in the year of the charter, when he was married. This relationship may be regarded as the only one that can be accepted.

The only possible doubt is whether Margaret, who undoubtedly succeeded, was the daughter of Sir Alexander V "the son", or of his brother "Sir John", or possibly of the other brother William who was drowned at Berwick.

It is assumed that the succession as shown above is correct, in spite of any statements by other authorities .

John Seton, 1st of Parbroath based on www2.thesetonfamily.com:8080/gallery/The_Setons_of_Parbroath_History.htm, is not the same as https://www.patrickspeople.scot/ourfamily/6249.htm.

PARBROATH?

" (page 569 footnote) 6 According to Maitland {M. G., 24), John, the fourth son, married Elizabeth Ramsay, daughter and heir of Sir Neil Ramsay, Knight, and was by her ancestor of the family of Seton of Parbroath, co. Fife ; but of this there appears to be no record evidence extant ; and the course of the succession to the Seton estates seems irreconcilable with the statement."

from Scots Peerage (vol 8) 1

This 4th son of Alexander IV is shown with unknown wife and two children:

1. SETON, Alexander. [This is Alexander VI]. Married Margaret Ruthven, d.s,p.
2. SETON, Margaret heiress of Seton+. Married Alan DE WYNTOUN by 1347.

"Margaret, Lady of Seton, presumably sister (or possibly first cousin) of Alexander de Seton, the husband of Margaret de Ruthven, and granddaughter of the
ex-Governor of Berwick, was married, apparently in or after 1347, to Alan de Wyntoun, who may perhaps have been a distant kinsman of her own. Andrew de Wyntoun tells of the abduction in that year of the young lady of Seton by Alan de Wyntoun (whom some have supposed his own relative), and gives a circumstantial account of what followed. He relates that 'for that maryage fell gret stryffe'; that 'Wyntoun's war,' as it was called, was such that

'in Lowthyane as men sayde
Ma than a hundyr plwys war layde';

and adds that William of Murray in Edinburgh Castle heartily supported and aided the aggressor."

from Scots Peerage (vol 8) 1

The Scots Peerage ed. Sir James Balfour Paul vol. 8 (1911). Page 570.

https://archive.org/details/scotspeeragefoun08paul/page/570/mode/2u...

I believe we, on Geni, should configure the tree as given in TSP.

Better link for http://www2.thesetonfamily.com:8080/gallery/The_Setons_of_Parbroath...

I will detach John Seton, 1st of Parbroath for its own tree, and replace with the John Seton described by House of Seton & TSP.

WikiTree contributors, "Margaret (Seton) Wyntown Lady of Seton (abt.1330-abt.1360)," WikiTree: The Free Family Tree, (https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Seton-205 : accessed 27 June 2024).

Conjecture on Parents

The parentage and lineage of Margaret is subject to uncertainty. There are four sources of the family lineage, with Balfour Paul[1] and Sir Bruce Gordon[2] being the two most likely. The debate is summarised in Sir Robert Gordon's work[3] between pages 95 and 99.

There is no doubt that she was the Heiress of Seton but her parentage is unknown. All sources agree that she was the granddaughter to Sir Alexander Seton, Governor of Berwick and later Master of Torphichen, and his wife Christian Cheyne. The conjecture arises as to which son she was a daughter to;

1. Thomas Seton, hanged at Berwick, 1333, no knowledge of a marriage;
2. William Seton, drowned at sea off Berwick, 1333, no knowledge of a marriage;
3. Sir Alexander Seton, at Newcastle, with Robert Bruce in 1323 as a "bachelor", died c. 1332 fighting against Balliol, he is said, by Maitland and Wynton, to have married a Margaret Murray, sister to William Murray, Captain of Edinburgh castle;
4. or Sir John Seton, who was known to have married and had a son, Alexander Seton that married Margaret Ruthven.

Balfour Paul, likely on the basis that only one son, John Seton, is known to have married, suggests she was his daughter, although allows that she might have been a cousin.[4] Sir Robert Gordon favours that she was the daughter of the Sir Alexander Seton, killed in 1332, and an unknown mother (Margaret Murray according to Maitland and de Wynton), although allows that she might have been the daughter to Sir John, or even William.

Unless original source material appears to the contrary, wikitree will hold that she was the daughter to Sir John Seton and an unknown mother and record it as uncertain.

I’ve added Sir John Seton wife of John Seton and brother Sir Alexander Seton of that Ilk, VI to the tree.

Alternatively, her father was John’s brother Sir Alexander Seton, V