Manasses I “Robert” de Guines, Robert, count of Guînes - altered primary sources

Emma de Tancarville

Good morning Livio,
The white uploads you refer to are a Geni system glitch as a result of my adding two sources which you can see if you select the sources tab.

Emma de Tancarville has been accurately documented as being married to Manasses de Guines as her second husband, I came across this incomplete profile by accident as a result of following other evidentiary leads. This being a work in progress, you started banging you shoe on the table even before I had completed my entries.

Here are five more sources that confirm this marriage… (If only those, like yourself, who are managers of a profile actually did structured scientific research to improve content of that profile, Geni could be more accurate.)

Keats-Rohan has an entry in Domesday People p.302 under Nigel De Monneuile:
“Norman, from Monville, Seine-Maritime, arr. Rouen, cant. Clères (Loyd, 69), occurs as knight of the archbishop of Canterbury in Domesday Book and in 1093-6, when he was identified as de Munneville (Monville) in the Milites archiepiscopi. His fee was at Fleet, in the manor of Wingham, Kent (Du Boulay, Lordship of Canterbury, 384). Founder of Folkestone priory, a cell of Lonlay, c.1095 and also a benefactor of Bermondsey (Mon. Ang. iv, 672; v, 96) He married Emma, daughter of another Kentish landholder, William of Arques. His holdings passed after his death c. 1103 to his daughter Mathilda, wife of Rualon d'Avranches (d.1130-4), as the barony of Folkestone (ib, 674). His widow Emma married secondly Manasser count of Guînes.”

K.S.B.Keats-Rohan (1996 pre-publication proof) of Nottingham Medieval Studies 41 (1997) 13-56 "Domesday Book and the Malets: patrimony and the private histories of public lives" on her website, see page 21.

Lewis C Loyd, (1951, Clay and Douglas ed.) The Origins of Some Anglo-Norman Families.*

Sanders, English Baronies p.45 "Folkestone".*

Stapleton, T. (1846). VI. Observations upon the Succession to the Barony of William of Arques, in the County of Kent, during the period between the Conquest of England and the Reign of King John. By Thomas Stapleton, Esq. F.S.A.; as communicated to the Society of Antiquaries by the Central Committee of the Archæological Association. Archaeologia, 31, 216-237. doi:10.1017/S0261340900012327 google books.

The two marked with “*” I’ve not been able to check myself, they do not appear to be available yet due to copyright.

Regarding Medlands, the research presented is completely consistent with this connection here: http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/normacre.htm#EmmaArquesdiedafter1140. Robert I and Manasses are the same person according to Medlands, ie: ROBERT [Manass%C3%A8s] de Guines. But Medlands also says “The Historia Comitum Ghisnensium names "Emmam filiam Roberti camerarii de Tancarvilla in Normannia, viduam Odonis de Folkestane in Anglia" as wife of "Manasses"[59], which appears to be incorrect”.

It was the Historia Comitum Ghisnensium that I used and it was the basis for the name Tancarville, Medlands may have been confused by the previous entry in that a husband of Emma’s sister was GUILLAUME [I] de Tancarville. I can see an argument her name EMMA d'Arques might be better if that is your concern. The surname of Emma’s first husband Monville was that of a family that descended from Tancarville according to Mr. Stapleton in his discussion of the barony of William d’Arques, who was also known as William the Chamberlain and also the local surname of William of Tancarville taken from his castle. So I think your question is “is Emma d’Arques the same person as Emma de Tancarville”? It’s likely that d’Arques, Tancarville and Monville were, amoung others, part of a kin group.

Regarding Medlands in general, it is a very good secondary source, but not infallible. One should not rely on Medlands alone without confirming the data. I use it, but I don’t rely on it solely.

Please submit your evidence regarding Emma’s correct name, we can discuss it further.

Emma d’Arques is still “white empty” because I didn’t copy the original document. The source I cited that can be seen includes a link to its location, in this case Gallicia.bnf. If you are interested in what the source says you can look for yourself…

In any event, as I said this was a work in progress I’ve done additional work, you are correct in that Manasses had one illegitimate child, that has been corrected. I’ve also corrected the name I added in the original profile, and reached out to the managers of Emma de Monville to recommend a merge.

All corrections have been completed on Robert I dite “Manasses” de Guines.

The marriage order of his wife and unknown partner is correct. We know that legitimate daughter Sybille (Rose) died in child birth 1112 with her daughter Beatrice (I). If the bastard daughter Adelis 'Bâtarde' de Guines was born in 1120 as shown, then the relationship with the unknown mistress must have occurred after the death of Sybille in 1112, therefore being the second relationship. I have not however done any research on Adelis other than confirming her name as an illegitimate daughter so cannot vouch for the date or anything else attributed to her.

The issue with the wife Emma is simple. In medieval Europe a woman who marries did not take the surname of her new husband. Emma was born d’Arques, she married firstly Nigel de Monville. She may have been styled Emma d’Arques dame de Monville, but she was never Emma de Monville (unless there was a local affection). After becoming a widow, her name was still Emma d’Arques, who the married as her second husband Manasses de Guines becoming Emma d’Arques, countess of Guines. She did not become Emma de Guines.

With regards to the occasional name some sources identify her as Emma de Tankerville, that appears to me to be false. She did have a sister Maud (Mathilde) d’Arques who married Guillaume de Tankerville, which may have confused some.

No disrespect meant, but this profile was added in 2008 and has been since then a patchwork of 108 misc. changes, none of which were sourced! I felt it necessary, as a curator, to do an in depth study using original or primary sources and cite those sources, convenient because I was already in relevant sourcing for other profiles.

Thank you for your assistance. As always, if you find legitimate evidence that disputes any of this documentation please present it for discussion.

No undo is necessary, this merge was of the same person. One of the profiles was originally unknown mistress which I changed during work in progress, so yes, I created the duplicate which I later merged. A new profile named unknown mistress has been created to replace it. An unmerge now would create duplicate files named unknown mistress.

We’re done with this!

Ingrīda Cinkmane (Dzelvīte)

You have a lot of direct ancestors here!

One note: I found no Emma de Tankerville, I explained it thusly: The issue with the wife Emma is simple. In medieval Europe a woman who marries did not take the surname of her new husband. Emma was born d’Arques, she married firstly Nigel de Monville. She may have been styled Emma d’Arques dame de Monville, but she was never Emma de Monville (unless there was a local affection). After becoming a widow, her name was still Emma d’Arques, who the married as her second husband Manasses de Guines becoming Emma d’Arques, countess of Guines. She did not become Emma de Guines.

With regards to the occasional name some sources identify her as Emma de Tankerville, that appears to me to be false. She did have a sister Maud (Mathilde) d’Arques who married Guillaume de Tankerville, which may have confused some.

If I’ve missed something please let me know…