Inheritance question

Hello Raymond Simula,
I think we are mixing Peter Couper with his son Petter Pettersson Couper
Petter Petterson Couper (1671 - 1743). Peter Couper (1630-1702.
Petters mother was Maria Ollintytär Halonen (1639 - ). Marias mother was Anna Pietarintytär Juusten (1595-1644). And Anna's father was Pietari Paavalinpoika Juusten (1565-1614).

Petter Pettersson Couper died at Juustila

We can also read, that Captain Couper was written Petter: Viipuri, Haudatut: http://hiski.genealogia.fi/hiski?fi+t8919604 1743 9.7.1743 Justila Capitain Petter Coupert 72.

Best regards

Goran Wahlberg

Sorry for my answer. It was only my private notes and not anything that should be send. However, I believe that it should be written, that is the son of tyttärentytär, Petter Couper. He was a captain and he just lived the date mentioned

Göran Wahlberg thank you for the information, the genealogy as shown in these profiles is correct however right? For example in my direct line I have Margareta Pettersdotter Krook, who was the sister of Peter Peterson Couper, daughter of Maria Halonen, who was daughter of Anna Persdotter Juusten etc.

I think we should not look at persons and Geni in this case. We should perhaps look at applicable laws from 1725. It may have been right so, that Juustila was returned officially to the father, even when he was dead.This was due to the law, which gave all the land owning and farming right the man. So the wife or woman had no right to manage Juustila. So the right could have been transferred to their son. This could even have happened without any written documents.
There is very many open questions related to applicable laws from that date. We may even not be able to close this case properly. We do not even know what law could have been used. The Swedish or the Russian, or perhaps no law at all.

That’s very interesting thank you. Those laws would be interesting to look up if they are able to be looked up at all from that long ago. So just to put everything together for my own research, Peter Couper (born 1630) was indeed married to the grand daughter of Peter Paulsson Juusten (Maria Halonen). Their son Peter Peterson Couper (born 1671)also inherited Juustila after the death of his father. Peter (born 1630) and Maria also had a daughter named Margareta. Sorry for the questions and confusion I’m just trying to get this right for my own project.

What is your language skill. Which languages are you able to follow? There are texts related to Couper written in Finnish, Swedish, English, German and may in Dutch.

There may be some texts around the Couper's, which cannot be proved to be exact correct. One of such is: from where did Peter Couper move to Finland and Viipuri? There are some text, which says he is from Scotland, some other text proposes Holland.

One thing is for sure, and that are the informations from theYlioppliasmatrikkeli 1640 - 1852: The son of Captain Petter Couper and probably Anna Katarina Rugeröd, Karl Gustaf Couper (Swedish language).
He was (christened/name giving???) September 1739. He become secondary school graduate in Kiel Germany26.10.1749. At that moment his name was: Carl Gustaf Couper Wiburgensis. He studied in Jena in Germany and become a cleric1757. In Jena his name was: Carolus Gustaf Couper Wiburgensis.
He worked in Germany, but became a dean / provost in Viipuri. He died 4.6.1779. He was married to Maria Hedvig Gaudelitz. She died 1791.

>>>Petter Couper was authorized a lieutenant at Viittauksia: KA valtakunnanregistratuura 10.7.1682 f. 409 (Confirmation på Een Bördz och Rustningzrätt för Regementz Feltschähren [under det Careliske Cavalleriet och Öfwersten Mellin] Johan Hinrich Rugerod ... af framledne Rådmannens Anthonj Burchartz Enkie tillkiöpt sig bördz och Rustningz rättigheten uti hemmanet Lihaniemi i Wiborgs Sochn), 20.12.1684 f. 830 (Confirmation för M:r Joh. Hind. Rügerödh på dess Feldtschiärs tiänst), 7.5.1685 f. 235 (Till Öfwersten Fritz Wachtmeister, swar om dhe 2:ne af honom förmählte Feldtsherer Hinrich Rugerod och Adam Schutz (katso 4740) ... wij hafwe uthi Wårt till Edher d. 15 Aprilis ifrån Kongzöhr affgångne bref (katso U241) låtit edher tydeligen förstå, att ingen fäldtschiär under Regementerne kan conserveras, som icke har undergått Examen hoos Bardberare Embetet här i Stockholm, altså måste så wähl den eena som den andre sådant undergåå; Och kunne I altdherföre ju förr ju heller hijtskynda dhem, williandes wij sedan, dhen som Embetet kienner wara bäst och capablest, widh tiensten bijbeholla, eller dher ingendehra skulle bestå een annan edher tillordna låtha), 14.5.1685 f. 256 (Till Öfwersten Fritz Wachtmeister, att inkomma medh sin förklaringh, hwarföre han så illa angifwit feldtschieren Rugerod), 5.3.1689 f. 143 (Fendrichz Fullmacht för Hans Hindrich Couper under Åbo Lähns Infanterie och Lijf Compag. unti Benedict Wulffenschiöldz stelle), 31.5.1690 f. 333 (Resolution uppå Feldtschärens Rugeråds ingifne Memorial), 31.5.1690 f. 338 (Till Öfwersten Fritz Wachtmeister, att förklara sigh vppå dhen klagan, Regements Feltschären af dess Regemente Rugeröd emot honom ingifwit, med hwad mera), 31.5.1690 f. 340 (Till Landzhöfdingen Lindhielm, angående Regementz Feltschären Rugerödt, så och Stadz Feltschären i Wijborg Christopher Bothin), 17.3.1698 f. 213 (Regementz Fälltskärs fullmacht för Hans Christopher Hartman (vertaa 6683) ... medelst Johan Hind. Rugeröds dödelige frånfälle Fältskärs beställningen wid Wårt Carelske Cavallerie Regemente är kommen at blifwa ledig), 25.10.1701 f. 737 (Lieutenants fullmackt för Petter Cuper ... wid Öfwerstens Jurgen Johan Lodes anförtrodde Infanteri Regemente Finske Tremenningar); KA mf. ES 1814 (ii 2) Pyhtään ja Lapinjärven käräjät 8.–9.1.1666 f. 54v (Öffwerstens Wälborne H:r Henrichz Rebindhers Ombudzman Petter Cuper); KA mf. ES 1815 (ii 7) Pyhtään ja Lapinjärven käräjät 21.–23.6.1690 f. 66 (för detta Arrendatorens Wäl:t Petter Cupers barns lijk blifwit uhr Kulla gårdz graaf lyffte); KA mf. ES 3745 (Ikaalinen 1) Hämeenkyrön ja Ikaalisten käräjät 23.–26.1.1671 f. 310 (Företrädde Öfwerstens wällbornne H:r Hendrich Rejbennes Amptförwallter Petter Kuppert), 314v; KA mf. ES 1838 (jj 22) Säkkijärven käräjät 21.–22.7.1679 s. 41 (Då framträdde Inspectoren wälbetrodde Pether Cupert och ahnmodadhe af Retten ett Attestatum om dhet, till Cronan fallne Norrkiöpings besluthz Frelsses tillståndh, af 5/6 Skatt beståendes, uthj Jåckillaby medh Tapiola, och Seckierfwij Sochn /: som Sahl: Öfwerstl: Horns Wägner sidst, oppå åfwan bem: Wilckor innehafft hafwer, och Gen: Majoren Wälborne H:r Hindrich Rebbinder, uthj sidsta Kongl: Commissionen, A:o 1678 under Ryttare Rustienst bewilliat ähr :/ och dess beskaffenheet); KA mf. ES 1838 (jj 23) Viipurin pitäjän käräjät 11.–12.11.1681 s. 62 (Fordom General Majorens Sahl: H:r Rebenders Arfwingars Fullmächtiges, Inspect: Petter Kupers klagan, öfwer Regementz Qwartermestaren welb: Bernhard Tetengren, angående des Härskapz fiskieredskapz och näätz afhändande, uthj Ignatala Fiskierij, togz nu allenast ad notam, effter som ingendera af parterne, hwar annan låtit hel:r till detta Ting Citera); KA mf. ES 1839 (jj 24) Jääsken käräjät 11.–13.11.1684 s. 214 (Inspectoren Welbet:dh Petter Couper, å Baron och Ryttmestarens, H:r Gustaff Rebinders wegnar); KA mf. ES 1839 (jj 25) Jääsken käräjät 26.–27.5.1685 s. 300 (Uppå denn Unge Robbort Coupers på Kafwandhollm skrifftel: bekiennelse att hafwa fallit j lägerssmåhl med sine förälldrars tienste Pijga); KA mf. ES 1839 (jj 26) Jääsken käräjät 3.–7.12.1689 s. 296 (Kånan Sofia Johans dotter, som tillstodh sigh, medan hon tiente på Kafwantholm, wara Lägradh af den unge Robbert Cuper, Arrendatorens därsammastädes Son, hwar efter hon allareda 1688 in Augusto födt barn); KA mf. ES 1840 (jj 27) Jääsken käräjät 16.–18.6.1690 s. 158, Viipurin pitäjän, Säkkijärven ja Koiviston käräjät 11.–14.11.1691 s. 139 (Inspect:ns Cupers Ryttare-Gårdh Tickala); KA mf. ES 1840 (jj 29) Viipurin pitäjän ja Säkkijärven käräjät 19.–23.10.1696 s. 134 (een skriffteligh Protest emoth Arrendatoren Pet: Couper, katso U494), 151 (Togz uppå Willhelm Coupers begähran ad notam, dhet een Bonde Mattz Larsson ifrån Kälckala förlijkt bem:te Coupers Broder, som är een Under Officerare af Infanterie Peter Couper dhen yngre ben:d); KA mf. ES 1842 (jj 38) Viipurin pitäjän käräjät 30.–31.1.1700 s. 3 (Sergeanten Petter Coupert uppå des Rusthåldz wägnar Kåstiala); KA mf. ES 1842 (jj 40) Viipurin pitäjän käräjät 18.–19.1.1701 s. 16 (Framledne Regementz Bardberarens Johan Rugerödz Omyndige Barn och Erfwingar ... Kåstiala Rusthåldh), Viipurin pitäjän käräjät 29.–31.10.1701 s. 192 (Leutenampten Petter Kouper), 201 (Rusthåll:n Robert Couper); KA mf. ES 1842 (jj 43) Viipurin pitäjän käräjät 30.–31.5.1704 s. 64 (Widh detta Häradz Ting blef Kåstiala gårdh, Hwilken Lieutenampten Manhafftig Petter Coupert sig aff sina Medarfwingar tillhandlat, nu första Reesan oppbuden, och war ingen som här Emoth Klandrade, som såledz togz ad notam); KA mf. ES 1842 (jj 43) Viipurin pitäjän käräjät 20.–22.10.1704 s. 158; KA mf. ES 1843 (jj 44) Viipurin pitäjän käräjät 27.–30.1.1705 s. 10; KA mf. ES 1843 (jj 45) Vipurin pitäjän käräjät 5.–6.2.1706 s. 27 (Förekom uppå Leutnanten Edell och Manhafftigh Petter Coupertz wägnar Handelsman S:r Carsten Dannenberg (vertaa U535), och oppwijste ett Kiöpe Bref af d: 29 Aprilis A:o 1703, som med Regementz Fältskiären Sahl: Johan Rogerödz Omyndige Barns och Arffwingars Constituerade Förmyndare, Handelsmännerne Johan Schaver, och bemälte Carsten Dannenberg, är om Ryttare Hemmanet Kåstiala i Wijborgz S:n belägen sluutit); KA mf. ES 1795 (gg 2) Jaakkiman ja Uukuniemen käräjät 23.–24.3.1683 f. 109 (Sahl: her General Leutenamtens Henrich Rebinders Arfwingars Inspector Wälbetrodde Peter Cauper ... han ähr långt bort här ifrån wed Wijborg boendes, och kan icke åfta wara på denne orten). — Das Album der Christian-Albrechts-Universität zu Kiel 1665–1865 (hrsg. v. F. Gundlach, 1915) #4625; Die Matrikel der Universität Jena III 1723–1764 (bearb. v. O. Köhler, 1969–92) s. 571. — M. Akiander, Herdaminne II. BNF 14 (1869) s. 439; J. Vallinkoski, Turun akatemian väitöskirjat 1642–1828. HYKJ 30 (1962–66) #335D; K. Väänänen, Vanhan Suomen papisto. SKHST 95 (1975) #63; G. Luther, Herdaminne för Ingermanland II. SSLS 620 (2000) s. 212.

I can only read and write in English, everything else I have to use a translator for, including reading old texts. I've never seen that text you just shared I look forward to reading it. I also found this:

Margaretha Petersdotter Krook o.s. Couperth, ruustinna Viipurissa, s. 1670 Antrea Talikkala Kuparsaari, k. 1743 Karstula Krookkila. Leskenä eli poikansa kanssa Karstulassa. Tulivat autioituneeseen Karstulan taloon - nykyiseen Ruukkilaan, jota perhe isännöi vv.1722 - 1744

“Margareta oli Antrean Kuparsaaren Saviniemen arrendatorin Peterin tytär. Nimi kirjoitetaan monella tavalla; Couper, Kuperth, Coupar jne. Couperit olivat sotilaita jne. Tällä hetkellä olisin sitä mieltä, että nimi viittaa enemmänkin Kuparsaareen kuin hugenotteihin! Margareta oli kuitenkin Karstulan Krookkien kantaäiti ja monen suvun lähde: Stenrothit, Järnefeltit jne! Isä, Petter von Couper oli kapteeni, vuokraaja, tilanhoitaja, kuoli 72-vuoden iässä, 2.2.1702, Viipuri, Juustila. Margarethan äiti oli Maria

I find it strange that not much is written about Peter Couper's wife Maria. All that I've seen is that she is a grand-daughter of Per Pavelsson Juusten and that she was the mother of the children. Peter Couper (b.1630) only had one wife as far as the research shows correct?

Hello Raymond, I can understand your problem. The text I sent you was mainly Swedish text around 1720. In additional explanation text from the profile of Peter Couper is questioning many of thing written in the profiles. I will here only copy the questions. Iff I add some comments, they will be in brackets

1) There are somewhere text about Peter Couper that he was enrolled by the Swedish-Firnnish army.
2) His son Petter Pettersson Couper / Peter von Couper / Petter von Couper / Captain Peter von Couper. I hav not fin any source, where he could have got the "von", but it was possible to buy such noble titles at that time.
3a) In the "Studen materiel" is written::, that (medelst Johan Hind. Rugeröds dödelige frånfälle (Due to the death of Johan Hind. Rugeröd)
3b)Fältskärs beställningen wid Wårt Carelske Cavallerie Regemente är kommen at blifwa ledig), (The order by the military doctor has become vacant) 25.10.1701 f. 737

(Lieutenants fullmackt för Petter Cuper ... wid Öfwerstens Jurgen Johan Lodes anförtrodde Infanteri Regemente Finske Tremenningar); KA mf. ES 1814 (ii (the lieutenant commission for Petter Cuper)

This only tells us that the position "Captain" may have been a bought commission from the army. and not related to any military position.

The laws about owning and rights to own and use land 1700 was in general not allowed for a woman. So even if she in principle had got or owned the land, it was only mentioned about her father or husband.

Your text at the end is a mixture of truth and errors.
- Was the elder Couper a captain?
- He did not die at Justina, but at Kuparsaari 1702.
- His Son, died at Juustila 1743
- Text about Maria? In general there used to be very little written about the wife's

- How do we know her family was Halonen etc. All the normal sources - the church records are only available from the time frame 1746 - 1895. And most of these records are only open to local members.
https://www.sukuhistoria.fi/sshy/sivut/jasenille/paikat.php?plid=627
https://www.sukuhistoria.fi/sshy/sivut/jasenille/paikat.php?type=1

All very good points, is Otto-Meurman’s text the only source linking the Couper’s to the Juustens? I haven’t been able to find much but I also haven’t seen the sources he used for his information. I conclude from that there should be more information out there regarding the link between the Coupers and the Juusten’s.

https://fi.wikipedia.org/wiki/Otto-Iivari_Meurman

Meurman was an architect, and not a history author. Meurman was the city planning architect of Viipuri 1918 - 1937. He wrote a book about the manors in Viipuri 1985. The book was called the "History of. Viiipuri 3". So as we can see, he was the a specialist in writing history books, but from his occupation we knew the manors well from his century, but we know little about his knowledge a couple of centuries back.

My own knowledge of the family Juusten is related his son the Bishop Paul Juusten. Paul Juusten was the son of Peder Juusten (1470 - 1530), the original owner of Juustila.

So I am afraid, I cannot help you very much more, but I will try to collect more data and I will be back to you later.

Best regards

Göran Wahlberg

Göran Wahlberg you have been more than helpful thank you so much.

It is written, that the Juustila manor was owned by the family Juusten14th century. Or it is even mentioned the family lived there at took the name of the manor as there family name. Even if the manor area was not involved in war 1939, the area was included in the piece agreement with Russia.
Jully Ramsay has written about the so called rälssisuvut = which are the highest ranked families in Finland and the had no obligation to pay tax. http://netti.nic.fi/~wirmaila/muutsuvut/juusteen/juusteenjal5polv.html
On the first page you can links to other written information related to that time frame.

This page more describes the family arm, related to the Bishop Juusten

This is a link the the bishops in Finland. The bishops till Martti Skyttä were all Catholic and from Mikael Agricola protestantic.

Text about Viipuri from about year 1300. On page 35 you can find links to Juusten

Family Forssius roots in the family Juusten. http://www.saunalahti.fi/arnoldus/forsviip.html

http://www.crlearning.org/showbook.php?file=88567-0000.txt

https://kansallisbiografia.fi/paimenmuisto/henkilo/1257

https://docplayer.fi/139733228-Viipurin-suomalaisen-kirjallisuusseu...

http://netti.nic.fi/~wirmaila/muutsuvut/juusteen/juusteenjal5polv.html

The link above, at the bottom of the site it shows surnames and additional names, are you aware of what those additional names are? One of the names shown is Krook to which I am a descendant of. Are those names linked to Juusten as descendants or are they something else?

Raymond, I just found, that we are very far relatives and also both relatives to bishop Peter Juusten. I am living in Turku where the bishop is buried in the cathedral of Turku. The relationship between us is becoming very long due to the fact that route are from different arms. This relationship is via my mother. So you are my 13th cousin once removed.

Then we have a second relationship, which is much shorter, relation by marriages. There you are my great uncle's aunt's husband's second cousin four times removed. In this we are both linked to the same Krook.

The list of names you refer to in http://netti.nic.fi/~wirmaila/muutsuvut/juusteen/juusteenjal5polv.html
is not fully clear to me either. When I would have the origin document to which it is linked, I could tell you more.
Anyhow, as it is named, I think it is just a list of names, that occur in the full document. E.g. Krook is globaly a fairly common name. I tested some of these, and found that only a few do have a relationship. In Finland, there are about 500 persons with the name Krook. In Holland 500, Sweden 969, Norway 12 and USA 358 and Australia 14.

goran.wahlberg@gmail.com

The route by marriage: Me>Birger Wahlberg>Jenny Wahlberg>Gustava West>Karl Emil West>Isak West>Greta Wäst>Johan Syring>Anna Lustg>Brita Lustig>Jacob Grop>Mickel Grop>Anna Grop>Ida Sand>Jennie Simula>Private Simula>Raymond Simula

The route as blood relation: Me>Dagmar Wahlberg>Hilma Hilvonen>Hiskias Hilvonen>Eeva Lahnamaki>Juho Horkka>Kustaa Lahnamaki>Juho Tapanila>Elin Wirmala>Juho Virmala>Riitta Wirmala>Hannu Wirmala>Kaarina Juusten>Severi Juusten>Bishop Peter Juusten>Peter Juusten>Anna Juusten>Maria Halonen>Margaretha Coupert>Niilo Krook>Johan Krook>Brita Krook, Anna Gullberg>Kaisa Gullberg>Carl Backman>Ida Sand>Jennie Simula>Private Simula>Raymond Simula

Now I can clearly see what is behind your questions. Thank you

goran.wahlberg@gmail.com

Göran Wahlberg that is incredible, it’s amazing to see how closely we are related considering the distance between us.

Yes now that you see the blood route you can see my other concern. I have documentation leading all the way up to Maria Couper (Halonen), but only secondary sources in regards to Maria herself and her being a descendant of Juusten. The documents I’ve seen showing her children only seem to show the father Peter Couper and not her. As I said many secondary sources I’ve seen including this link:

http://netti.nic.fi/~wirmaila/muutsuvut/juusteen/juusteenjal5polv.html

Which quotes Otto Meurman’s work, shows that connection. That being said I understand during that timeframe there was much war and certain documentation may be lost. The question for me is are the sources we have strong enough to definitely claim Maria Couper (Halonen) as a Juusten descendant? I presume that the connection as it stands and as is presented In Meurman’s work and many secondary sources comes from some pieces of reliable evidence. You probably have more sources in Finland than I do in the United States to read into that. It has been difficult research here on that end. Thanks again for any information and help it’s so appreciated.

-Raymond Simula

Raymond, the same here. In the Geni profile of Maria is written: From where can we know that Maria was the wife of Petter Couper and the mother of his children? and from where the information that she was descendant of the Halonen family. There is only mentioned "the wife", date of birth and marriage.

The general main source are the parish registers. And the all start at about 1756 or 1855. Earlier are fragmented text, guesses, family historical archives etc. End errors are the duplicated from text to text. I have some texts related the earlier times of the family Halonen. However they are some in form of tables or photos, which are not possible to send as Geni written answers. Please, Raymond, send me your e-mail address and I'll send what I can find.

Goran
goran.wahlberg@gmail.com

Göran Wahlberg yes that would be great.

Rsimula57@gmail.com