Swein son of Thor - The National Archives

Here is the 1st link to the record for a Robert son of Swan. Its Dated 1220x1228 giving Robert a possible birth date of abt. 1180

https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/17a2d629-4f14-4...

Heres the link's to the records of the David son of swan all dated 1234-1300

https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C5688013

https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C5688085

https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C16101488

https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C16101554

Heres the link to a Thomas son of swan dated 1100-1500

https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C5517677

Heres the link to the record for jordan son of swan its a grant of all the men that belong to the father of swan dated, 1175-1208 https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/80efbeaa-0334-4...

from this I have work out there mother is infact Emma Fitzalan. Daughter of Walter FitzAlan 1st High Steward of Scotland, brother of Jordan FitzAlan, Seneschal of Dol

MedLands allows a different construction:

WALTER FitzAlan, son of ALAN FitzWalter High Steward of Scotland & his wife --- (-1241). He succeeded his father as High Steward of Scotland. "Walterus filii Alani domini regis Scotie senescallus" donated property to Paisley monastery by undated charter[1198]. The seal of "Walteri filii Alani" is appended to a charter under which "Walter son of Alan the Stuart" confirmed the donation of land at Edmonstone to Melrose by "Walter the son of Alan his grandfather"[1199]. Alexander II King of Scotland confirmed the donation of land "in Tibermur" made by "Walterus filius Alani", in confirmation of a donation by "Suanus filius Thori avus eiusdem Walteri", by undated charter[1200]. "Walterus filius Alani" confirmed the donation of "Tubermure" made to Scone abbey by "Swan filius Thory auus meus" by undated charter, dated to before 1221, witnessed by "Gilbto comite de Stathern dño Robto filio ei, Rogero de Mortimer, Galfrido de Inutunglas vic de Pth, Dunecano fil Moregrund, Reginaldo de Warenn, Walto filio Swani, Henr fil Alani fil Wani…"[1201]. He adopted the name Stewart. https://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/SCOTLAND.htm#WalterFitzAlandied1177B

The deal here is that this Walter is the grandson of Walter fitz Alan by his older son Alan fitz Walter, who was probably *not* the son of Eschina de Molle. We don't know who Alan fitz Walter's wife was either.

The literal meaning of "avus" is "grandfather", but it was also used more loosely to mean simply "ancestor". If taken literally, it would mean that Alan fitz Walter's wife was a daughter of Swan fitz Thori; less literally, the reference may be to (grandfather) Walter fitz Alan's unknown first wife. Either way, it's a distaff side connection and can hardly be interpreted as anything else.

There is no primary evidence for the existence of an "Emma, daughter of Walter fitz Alan".

The man named Robert son of Swan who is mentioned by Martin has no obvious connection with Swan son of Thor, the ancestor of the Ruthvens of that Ilk.

https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/17a2d629-4f14-4...

The man named David son of Swain Skidbrooke (de Skytebroc), links given below, has no known connection with Swan son of Thor.

https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C5688013

https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C5688085

https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C16101488

https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C16101554

Moreover, Swan son of Thor has no known connection with Skidbrooke in Lincolnshire, England,

See Volume IV of The Scots Peerage

https://archive.org/details/scotspeeragefoun04pauluoft/page/254/mod...

Thomas son of Swayn de Butterwyc in Lincolnshire, England, link follows, has no known connection with Swan son of Thor.

https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C5517677

Swayn de Butterwyc may be the same person as Swain of Skidbrooke (de Skytebroc), also in Lincolnshire, but evidence is wanting.

Maven B. Helms is correct: There is no primary evidence for the existence of an Emma, daughter of Walter son of Alan. Moreover, there is no evidence of a connection between the first three hereditary stewards of Scotland and the ancestors of the Ruthven family.

Walter son of Alan, the first hereditary steward of Scotland (who died in 1177), or, more likely, his grandson of the same name (who died in 1241), appears to have been confused with Sir Walter of Ruthven, who was the son of Alan son of Swein, and the grandson of Swein son of Thor. It was Sir Walter of Ruthven who confirmed the charter by which his grandfather transferred land at Tubermore to the canons of Scone.

Scone Liber: 125

https://archive.org/details/liberecclesiedes78sconuoft/page/90/mode...

Sir William of Ruthven is noticed in different deeds as Waltero filio Alani (1214 X 1249); Walti filij Alani (ante 1240); Waltero filio Alani de Rotheuen (1233 x 1258); Dno Walt'o de Rothuen (1260); domini Walteri de Rothven (1290) and as Sir Walter de Rothevan (1304).

A link to his profile overview follows:

Sir Walter of Ruthven

Looks like Cawley (MedLands) did it again - chopped his citation so short that he lost important information. Specifically, that the "Walter fitz Alan" referenced was Walter fitz Alan fitz Swein, not Walter fitz Alan fitz Walter.

That should clarify the situation.

In surviving Scottish deeds (usually written in Latin) the first hereditary steward of Scotland is frequently identified as Walter son of Alan, rather than as Walter Fitz Alan. For example, he is noticed as "Walterus filius Alani, domini Regis Scotorum senefcallus" or "Walterus filius Alani, dapifer Regis Scotie" in the earliest charters printed in the Register of the Monastery of Paisley.

Paisley Registrum:

https://archive.org/details/registrummonaste00mait/page/1/mode/1up

The first steward also held land of his older brother, at North Stoke, near Arundel, and it may well be the case that he is identified as Walter Fitz Alan in deeds associated with that place, but, presently, I cannot confirm that this is the case.

This was back before surnames were a common thing, so more often than not people were identified by their father's first name, or by the lands they held, or occasionally both.

In casual usage the Normans represented "son of" (and sometimes "daughter of") by "fitz", a derivation from the Latin "filius/a". ("Fitz" in an Irish name *always* means a Norman ancestor, whether they like it or not.)

Deeds and suchlike, being formal legal documents, usually were written in Latin (though the language had already gone a bit quirky due to generations of wear & tear). Full changeover from Latin (or French) to plain English didn't happen until the (short) reign of Richard III. (That was one good thing he accomplished, requiring that legal documents should be written in a language the common people could understand. The Tudors recognized the common sense of this, and didn't try to change things back, retrograde as they were in other ways.)