Social History of Tarnopol - LICHTENTHAL Family

Started by Deborah Holman on Friday, April 29, 2022
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Hello, I am looking for information that might help me understand the early life of my great-grandfather Joachim (Sigmund) LICHTENTHAL. He was born in Tarnopol in 1875 to Rachmiel Lichtenthal (B. Tarnopol 1839) and Antonia Beller. He left in 1892 to make a living as a hatmaker, ultimately settling in Vienna. I have read many websites and tried looking at the Yizkor book for Tarnopol but these only touch briefly on the history of the city. I am interested in learning more of the social history as well as the leather/hat-making trade there.

Additionally, I have been unable to find any trace of his brother Chaim, (b. Tarnopol 1871) after 1920. He died presumably in 1939. I have located and traced all t[other siblings to their deaths but can't find what happened to Chaim who also went by the name of Karl. (I have checked Yad Vashem, Arolsen Archives, USHHM, Jewishgen, Gesher-Galicia, JRI-Poland, Genteam.at, and the four commercial sites)

Any guidance is appreciated.

I don't have any information unfortunately, but I am curious about the Yizkor book for Tarnopol. I've seen it in Yiddish. Is there an English translation available somewhere? (My grandfather, Robert Wexler, was born in Tarnopol.) Thank you.

Sorry. I can't be of any help to you. My family name is Turner, and i believe they had some connection to Tarnopol ,but I have not found any..

HIYA dear Deborah!

Though I too, unfortunately, can't help with any suggestion of a more detailed social history piece on Tarnopol ...

As I took a quick look at your great grandpa Sigmund LICHTENTHAL on GENI and noted that little info is posted on him and only very few of his further family members are even posted at all ...

I would recommend that you fill out these details as much as possible.

The more you place your personal pieces of the genealogical jigsaw puzzle on the public table the greater the chance is that others will be able to collaborate towards a fuller, clearer picture.

At speed I found more mentions of family members in various sources (e.g. I'm supposing that your "1920" last date for brother Chaim/Karl pertains to mother "Toni's" newspaper death notice?).

Often the tiniest trivia - related to relatives too - can prove a valuable clue ...

GOOD LUCK & BEST WISHES!

pip

Ellen: It's in yiddish. I used Google Lens (Translate) to get an idea of what's there. Sadly,most of the entries are about Zionism rather than the town itself.

PiP: Good advice!

pIP: You are right on! And then he disappears!! But he may have had two sons - when, where and with whom, I have no idea! My grandfather (Paul LICTHENTHAL) made a family tree in 1959 and mentions two sons - no names of course!!

HELLO again dear Deborah!

First off must just warn you I'm suffering terrible internet problems (loooooong story) which may mean I'm unable to stay constant in any further exchanges with you.

I'm quite an "old hand" at genealogical research and am always happy to help someone out. Being basically trilingual (English, French, German - plus a smattering of other languages) an asset.

One source I especially enjoy using is the wonderful website displaying Vienna & etceter newspapers of the era:

https://anno.onb.ac.at/

Where one can enter a search term and generaly be sure of an approx 90% set of worthwhile results.

For example, there are several mentions of your Sigmund associated with at least two different types of "hat" making. (And even through this sort of thing an idea can be gleaned about his business).

AND e.g. there's a search notice in 1914 (probably due to dislocation of folk at start of war threats?) posted by an Anna WALTUCH (of Wien) for Adolf & Dora LICHTENTHAL of Tarnopol (plus a mystery - at least for me - Chaim TRESTER)

ANNO, Neue Freie Presse, 1914-12-02, Seite 24

https://anno.onb.ac.at/cgi-content/anno?aid=nfp&datum=19141202&...

...

TO BE CONTD:

And again ...

(Because my internet connection is literally conking out every now & then, so I wanted to get first bit sent before it got lost ...)

2 other quick points here:

- I checked Wien address book for 1920. Only Sigmund LICHTENTHAL appears to be resident there - i.e. not Karl/Chaim.

- I checked Sigmund's New York passenger listing. It only gives "sister-in-law" Adele LICHTENTHAL, Leipzig, as contact person for place of departure i.e. Europe.

https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:33S7-95N1-9PXH?i=497&am...

My suspicion is, if Karl/Chaim LICHTENTHAL doesn't appear on any official Holocaust lists then he may well either have died or managed to flee beforehand.

GRRR that Paul's family tree shows no names - or any other bits of data - for Karl's purported wife & 2 sons!

If you can really get going on posting your people on GENI, I'll then be glad to put any input there i can afterwards. (let me know when it's done ...)

And, as I said, others may well help "work it out" too eventually ...

KEEP UP HOPE! BEST WISHES!

pip

Dear Pip,
I am amazed you found so much already! And it is great you confirmed my suspicions that Chaim/Karl married Helene. It is interesting he uses "Joachim" as a given name at times, as that was also the birth name of his younger brother Sigmund. Wonder why that was. I will be searching the various Jewish websites for any mention of Helene - perhaps I can find a birth record for the boys now that I have (Thanks to you!) several different locations in which to search.

I too love Anno.at but my German (esp in Fraktur) "ist nur ein bisschen!"

Adele married Norbert/Noach who was deported to Lvov in 1939 and died in hospital there 1942. Adele died lin Leipzig Germany in 1941.

Adolf/Abraham married Dwora Treister in Tarnopol in 1911. He went to Nisko in 1939 and died in Lvov in hospital (malnutrition) on 1941. Dwora moved to Vienna and died there in 1941

I will have to do more work to determine who Anna Waltuch is and why she would be looking them.

Also - apparently we are connected by marriage on my father's side!!!: Pip de P. James is your second great uncle's first cousin twice removed's wife's first cousin's wife's first cousin thrice removed.

I so appreciate you working on this mystery! I am writing a book on our family's Holocaust experience. I have wonderful info for the later years, but not much for Sigmund's early years in Tarnopol so I am trying to construct an idea of what his family life might have been like.

I will stay in tocu. Best of luck with your Internet!!

So pleased you're pleased dear Deborah!

In fact, precisely working on GENI to me right now is positive therapy, giving me a sense of achievement and hopefully bringing pleasure to others - precisely as I and neighbours battle with Deutsche Telekom to restore our landline - phone & internet - since lightning struck in our little town 8 - EIGHT! - months ago. Their substitute/courtesy T-Mobile Router often awful.

Besides, with the horror going on in Ukraine - this particular current activity gives me a feeling of coming closer to the people of that country (N.B. Russian attacks & pogroms, displacement of citizens, refugees - cf. Anna WALTUCH's search notice - of the past descriibed in various articles - cf. below).

You'll note that I happen to be a sticker about citing sources and adding all sorts of details under "About" on each profile. Encourage you to do that too. I can make mistakes so it's advisable even for me, as well as others, to be able to monitor my postings at a later time for veracity. N.B. as I also said before, sometimes the tiniest detail can become a major clue - house numbers on birth/death regs., for instance! Moreover, I just do like to be able to give credit to those wonderful websites offering such a valuable public service (even for free).

So I did point out that is was rather "confusing" to say the least that Chaim/Karl suddenly chose to be called Joachim´, like his brother Sigmund. However, Joachim really was a common variation for Chaim (and as said brother appeared to favour Sigmund, well ...).

YES - place as important as dates. The fact that Joachim/Karl/Chaim LICHTENTHAL apparently settled for some time in Krystynopol - and it is specifically stated that the couple married there - should provide a lead to look for e.g. birth records of sons (if at all available - sigh).

Strange though, that while LEIBLINGER surname relatively rare, I'm not getting further on them yet (only two Holocaust victims by that name, one - Rosa - b. Krakau, living in Wien - was Alois from there originally, and would this explain how "Karl of Krakau" met his future wife Helene?).

I might just have an idea on WALTUCH - and, oh JA, am assuming "Chaim TREISTER" must be a brother of Dwora (but don't dare post him as such yet, till I discover more confirmation.)

What I do have is several references to Sigmund's hat business (as I mentioned to you previously). And I do believe these snippets, together with e.g. the couple of details concerning professions of his siblings etc., should contribute to a certain "colour" to any book you're writing on your family (great idea!).

Actually, I also finally came across a pdf article on the Jews of Galicia - in English, what's more - which I think could be at least a bit of an answer also to your query re. more "social & Co. " info on Tarnopol - & etcetera. Probably best placed on a more general project page - namely, Galician Jewish Communities. As soon as I have a mo I'll attempt it.

Meanwhile, I'm presently poised to add parents to your Antonia "Toni" (Taube) LICHTENTHAL, née BELLER. If you'd like co-management of any of your precious people, please don't hestitate to put in a request.

Internet connection so far so OK today ...

"Back to work"

ALLES GUTE!

pip

Yeah - I didn't get round yesterday to checking out our "connection" - will do it ASAP, dear distant cousin!

Glad your internet is now cooperating. How frustrating! I am going to let you add Antonia's parents and will request collaboration later. Currently double-checking my sources for the Holocaust-related deaths of Sigmund's siblings and in-laws. This will be a tough chapter to write. I will add the info to Geni as I find it. I've been a member of Geni for years - but you have recently convinced me of the value of keeping the tree up to date :-)

HIYA dear Deborah!

My internet cooperating "now" - but could collapse at any minute - and maybe even for days ...

I'd assumed you didn't have info on Antonia's parents so went ahead and added them. Always also interesting to note name of father - Chaim - then passed on to a son of hers.

Glad I nudged you into developing your tree on GENI. Intrigued to see what further fruit that might bear from other members.

Myself, gonna take a break from Tarnopol & Co. today to get back to adavancing a current pet project.

BESTE GRÜSSE!

pip

FRIDAY FASTIE

- INFO on "Jews in Galicia ...1867-1918" pdf, article by Piotr WROBEL, just posted on Jewish Communities in Galicia Project page - highly recommended reading.

- a link which allowed me to read whole article yesterday eve on smartphone now prompts me to "register" on main computer. If you can overcome obstacle of that as well as fact it's all in German - an amazing account (appearing in moder newspaper but by a war reporter of past era) of how terribly Tarnopol suffered during the war from 1914-1917 - in light of current horror in Mariupol - it's spine-shudderingly "déjà vu" ...

Zerstörtes Tarnopol 1917: Ein rauchender Trümmerhaufen | FAZ

https://www.faz.net/aktuell/politik/der-erste-weltkrieg/zerstoertes...

- And I've, personally, now understood much more about the background reasons for Anna WALTUCH in Wien's search notice for relatives displaced in Galicia.

- And I'm gradually getting closer to working out the connections between the named individuals ...

Here's wishing ALL a GOOD WEEKEND!

pip

The article on Tarnopol looks very interesting! Thank you! Today I traveled from CT to CO for a grandsons birthday Have a good weekend!

SO glad you're getting to see grandson on birthday dear Deborah!

My Lil Sis coming to visit me from Wales so I'm poised to undertake a thorough spring scrub of "Haus" and will actually take a break from computering for a while.

Afterwards, I'll surely be back in touch ...

BESTE GRÜSSE!

pip

Hello ALL interested in "learning more about Tarnopol"!

Though still struggling with internet outages I've managed to:

- translate that 1917 war report from Tarnopol I've mentioned (into sort of acceptable English ...)

- posted this as pdf doc on respective Tarnopol "Jewish Communities" Project page.

Inevitably, particularly feel it is valuable because of current terrible situation in the Ukraine.

However, it does contain little details that should provide a bit more info on that specific era.

Wishing all a GOOD WEEKEND!

pip

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