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James Ogilvy of Balgally and Inchmartin - Mother changed

Started by Sharon Doubell on Saturday, April 16, 2022
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Private User is concerned that through this merge of yours Private User https://www.geni.com/merge/view?revision_id=81802029310, James Ogilvy of Balgally and Inchmartin lost the mother Mariota Hay
I haven't had a chance to look closely, but as you didn't log the change in a Discussion for the managers, if would be useful if you alerted them to the Primary sources you used to remove Mariota.

Private User says: Despite all these references like:
...”13 August 1500: Charter by which David Ogilvy of Inchmartine, with the consent of his wife Mariote Hay, confirms, with certain reservations, that he has given various lands, including Westir-Inchmartyn and Estir-Inchmartyn, to his son James Ogilvy of Balgally. RMS 1424-1514: charter number 2547

6
14 August 1500: Instrument of Sasine in favour of James Ogilve, son of David Ogilve of Inchmartin, of the lands of barony of Inchmartin following on charters by said David and Marion Hay, his spouse. National Records of Scotland, Papers of the Leslie family, Earls of Leven and Melville, reference GD26/3/1021”...
etc. this Neil has added some 3 unknown partner-profiles to David Ogilvy’s profile and changed the mother of James Ogilvy, Mariota Hay to one unknown partner, see here:
Daniel Gittinger

cf Sir David Ogilvy of Inchmartin, Kt.

cf 1. Name Not Known 2. Name Not Known 3. Name Not Known

The puzzling thing for me Neil - is that the Sources Maria is using to point out to you that you're making an error, were added by you in the first place?

Sharon - take a look at this page.

https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Ogilvy-483

It looks like David had children long before he married. TSP ignores all the children except James, and it’s only one reference to him as son of David at TSP:

8. https://archive.org/details/registrummagnisi02scot/page/540/mode/1u... Page 540 - 541, item 2547.

Yet the Wikitree manager & Neil have found quite a bit more.

I’m still digesting.

Okay - useful. Waiting for Neil and Maria to see this.

I should have started discussions about (1) The ancestry of James Ogilvy of Balgally and Inchmartine (2) The ancestry of Mariote Hay. I did not do so, and for this I apologise.

I did start a discussion about the ancestry of Mariote Hay on 19 March 2022

Okay - can you put the link for that Discussion here,

and also explain your process to the other managers here: (Even if it seems obvious to you, it helps to explain your thinking to everybody with an investment - so we don't undo the merge and the have to reinvent the wheel)

Maria says:
..."He (David Ogilvy) married a lady called Mariota Hay, though of what family is unknown. By her he had at least one son, James Ogilvy of Balgally, afterwards of Inchmartine."
"On 30 April 1492, with consent of his spouse Mariota Hay, he mortified to the Friars Minorites at Dundee twelve merks yearly from the lands of Petmedill and Inchmartyn for the benefit of the souls of Andrew Ogilvy his father and ' Mariote ' Ogilvy his mother."
"On 13 August 1500, with consent of his spouse, he granted to his son James Ogilvy of Balgally the lands of Westir and Eastir Inchmartyn, and others, in the barony of Inchmartyn, the superiority of the lands of Strathardill in the barony of Dounie, and the lands of Balgawy in the barony of Insture, reserving his own and his wife's liferents."
from Scots Peerage (vol 4) 1"...

Erica: Regarding "8.https://archive.org/details/registrummagnisi02scot/page/540/mode/1u... Page 540 - 541, item 2547."

From: The register of the Great seal of Scotland, A.D. 1306-1668 by Scotland; Great Britain. General Register Office (Scotland) Publication date 1882
547. Apud Dunde, 21 Sep. REX confirmavit cartam David Ogil^T^ de Incbmartyn, — [qua — amore fibali et pro fideli servitio, &c., cum consensu sponse sue Mariote Hay in judicio pre.stito, — concessit filio suo JACOBO OGILYY de Balgally,A.D. 1500.] 541[13 Jac. IV. heredibus ejus et assignatis, — terras de '\Vestu--Inclimartyn, Estir-Inclimartyn, cum turre, fortalicio, et manerie ejusdem, unacum tenentibus, &e., et advocatione ac donations capellanie capelle B.V.iL infra dictum fortalicium ; necnon terras de PetmedU et Cragdaly, cum molendino ejusdem et multuris et ejus sequelis, in baronia de Inchmartyn ; ac etiam superioritatem ter- ranun de Strathardill in baronia de Douny ; unacum terris de Balgawy que fuerunt quondam D. Hugonis, in baronia de Insture, vie. Perth : — Tenend. a dicto Dav. de rege : — Eeservato libero tenemento dicto Dav., et post ejus decessum dicte Mariote, — salva dicto Jac. et heredibus ejus imme- diate post decessum dicti David, dicta turre de InchmartjTi unacum 20 mere, terrarum infra baroniani de Inchmartyn, tam in feodo quam in libero tenemento : — Test. Pat. Wellis preposito et vicecomite de Perth, Job. Brisoun, Joh. Donnyng, Eob. Bonkle, baUivis, D. And. Eldare capellano ac notario publico, Dionisio Constantyn : — Apud Perth, 13 Aug. 1500]: — Test, ut in carta 2458, excepto 42. xiiL 406.

547. At Dundee, 21 Sep. The king confirmed the charter of David Ogil of Incbmartyn, which he granted to his son James OGILYY of Balgally,A.D. 1500.] 541 13 Jac. IV to his heirs and assigns, — the lands of 'Vestu-Inclimartyn, Estir-Inclimartyn', with the tower, fortalice, and manor of the same, together with the tenants, &e. and the lands of PetmedU and Cragdaly, with the mill of the same and manifold and its sequels, in the barony of Inchmartyn; and also the superiority of the tribe of Strathardill in the barony of Dunny ; together with the lands of Balgawy, which formerly belonged to Mr. Hugh, in the barony of Insture, vi. Perth: — To hold. from the said Dav. of the king:—the free tenement having been reserved to the said Dav., and after the death of the said Mariota, — without prejudice to the said Jac. and to his heirs immeasurably after the decease of the said David, the said tower of Inchmart, together with 20 mere, of the lands below the Barons of Inchmartyn, both in fee and in free tenement:—Test. Pat. Wells provost and sheriff of Perth, Job. Brisoun, Joh. Donnyng, Rob. Bonkle, baUivis, D. And. Eldare chaplain and public secretary, Dionisio Constantyn: — At Perth, 13 August 1500]: — Test, as in Charter 2458, except 42. xiiL 406

I'm probably being dense, but not seeing the point you're wanting us to understand from above.

Here: https://www.geni.com/discussions/248306?msg=1556502

Neil says:
In a charter dated 22 May 1467 James Ogilvy of Balgally and Inchmartine is noticed as the bastard son of Sir David Ogilvy of Inchmartine.

https://catalogue.nrscotland.gov.uk/nrsonlinecatalogue/details.aspx...

His father appears to have been lawfully married to a lady named Mariote Hay, from at least 30 April 1492 onwards until at least 29 September 1500, but it seems unlikely that she was the mother of a bastard son who may already have been of perfect age on 22 May 1467. See her profile overview Mariota Hay

Evidence for the name of his mother would be welcomed.

https://catalogue.nrscotland.gov.uk/nrsonlinecatalogue/details.aspx...
Reference Title Date
GD26 Papers of the Leslie family, Earls of Leven and Melville 1200-1936
GD26/3 Writs for Sheriffdoms of Fife, Perth, Miscellaneous, Tacks of Teinds, Inventories of Writs 1446-1899
Country code GB
Repository code 234
Repository National Records of Scotland
Reference GD26/3/1090
Title Instrument of Sasine in favour of James Ogilby, natural son of David Ogilby of Inchmartyn, of the Caldecotis of Ballgally, following on precept by John Cornvale of Ballgally.
Dates 22 May 1467
Access status Open
Location Off site
Description Witnesses: David Ogilby of Inchmartyn, sir David Parcar, priest, and William Scot, esquire. Tag and seal gone.
Level File

Private User I'm only seeing 2 'natural' sons in those charters: David & James. Why are you proposing David Snr had 3 mistresses?

Oh, I see: Patrick Ogilvy

Evidence from the National Records of Scotland
2 August 1449: Charter by John de Skierlyn [?Skirling ?Skilling; see GD26/3/970 and GD26/3/975] in favour of Sir Andrew de Ogilvy [Ogilvie] of Inchemartyn [Inchmartine], kt., of lands of the Tempil [Temple] of St. John [Knights Templars] in lordship of Inchemartyn. Witnesses: David de Ogiluy [Ogilvie], eldest son of said Sir Andrew, Patrick de Ogiluy [Ogilvie], son of said David, sir Thomas de Cruam [Cramb] and sir James Nefe [Neave], chaplains. [Seal appended.] National Records of Scotland, Papers of the Leslie family, Earls of Leven and Melville, reference GD26/3/982

I wonder why James Ogilvy of Balgally and Inchmartin the youngest of the bastard sons, takes over when the only legitimate son - Alexander Ogilvy of Inchmartine, younger must die in the c 1480 war?

Dear Sharon,

I am not proposing three mistresses. I have identified four sons for James Ogilvy of Balgally and Inchmartine but I have been unable to identify the names of their respective mothers. I wanted his family tree to allow for four different women - I am being too cautious? Could I have conveyed this in a different way?

No, no - I just hadn't see Patrick yet.

And i think I'm wrong about James being the youngest. In 1467, James is called the 2nd son of David:

13 October 1467: Precept of Sasine by John Cornwal [Cornwall] of Balgally [?Balgay, nr. Inchture] in favour of James Ogilby [Ogilvie], second son of David Ogilby [Ogilvie] of Inchmartin [Inchmartine], of half lands of Balgally. [Seal appended.] National Records of Scotland, Papers of the Leslie family, Earls of Leven and Melville, reference GD26/3/1091

So David Ogilvy of Duntrune only mentioned in 1478 is the youngest bastard son.

16 May 1478: Precept of Sasine by David Ogillvy [Ogilvie] of Inchmartyn [Inchmartine] in favour of his natural son, David Ogilvy [Ogilvie]

wrt

I have identified four sons for James Ogilvy of Balgally and Inchmartine but I have been unable to identify the names of their respective mothers.

Are you uncertain who Alex's mother is? (Surely he's the legit heir of the marriage to Mariota?) or have you found another bastard son?

Instrument whereby David Ogiluy [Ogilvie] of Inchmartyne [Inchmartine], being about to join the King's army against the English, confirmed his grant to his natural son, James Ogiluy [Ogilvie], of lands of Balgally [?Balgay, nr. Inchture] in barony of Inchsture [Inchture], lands of Barres [Barras] in barony of Glenbuy [?Glenbervie] and sheriffdom of Kyncardyn [Kincardine], and an annualrent of 12 merks from lands of Kynnarde [Kinnaird] in barony thereof. Grant is also ratified by Alexander Ogiluy [Ogilvie], son and apparent heir of said David. Witnesses include: James Carncors [Cairncross], Richard Cornwale [Cornwall], William Scot [Scott], sir David Parker, chaplain, [document damaged], Robert Adam, Richard Cristall [Chrystal and John Talzour [Taylor], residing in Ballyndane [Ballindean]. 6/8/1480

https://catalogue.nrscotland.gov.uk/nrsonlinecatalogue/details.aspx...

Does this mean Patrick is dead by 1480, I wonder?

Sir David Ogilvy of Inchmartin, Kt. lives until at least 1503: https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=ENKQAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA389&dq=Ogilvy... (Acts of the Lords of Council: 1501-1503 By Scotland, Scottish Record Office) when an action is brought against him and he is represented by his son James.

But he's old enough to have an 'adult'? son Patrick Ogilvy sign as a witness of a chartar with him in 1449 - which puts David's birth date at least 30 years before 1449 (so he's born c 1410-1419?) and dies in his late 80s or 90s.

And Patrick must be at least 15 when he signs as a witness above, so his birth must at least be c1430-34.
Does he simply die before 1480, or disappear/ fall out of favour? I wonder if we'll ever know

I have finally had the time to read this conversation and the findings, but I still can't see any evidence for mistresses or other wives for David Ogilvie than Mariota Hay and also for me it is a mystery why David and Mariota would together decide that James would inherit Mariota after she dies, and his heirs would in turn inherit David when he dies -if she wasn't his mother. It just doesn't make any sense. There is only one mention in all of these texts to claim for James to supposedly have been a "natural" son of David and thjs could be just a mistake, which occurr often enough even in the registries. And normally they wouldn't mention in most of the cases specifically anyway that "this person, the son of this man and his wife this woman", when it suffices to write son of this man(the head of the household). Besides in latin it it always written "SUO FILIO" and not in plural as "Their son", because that's the custom in writing in latin. Only if the mainperson mentioned alone is a woman and her son is named there for some reason, would they have written "SUA FILIO", the female form. Otherwise it was always after the male as I wrote. That is how latin works, that much I know because I speak fluently spanish and spanish language and the linguistic customs are derived from latin for the most part. I am still pretty sure there is a reason why Mariota Hay has been named as the mother of James Balgally in the peerage. And I don't see why someone would name wikitree as a source for information when it can be equally errored as any other site. I'm sure the writers of perrage has judged decisions based on the most logical approach, if there has been found to be conflicting information in the sources. Besides now the profile for David Ogilvie looks messy with mentions of various unnamed and unsourced mistresses and even some mysterious previous wifes. I just don't see the point of that with even the sources for those missing.

James Ogilvy of Balgally, afterwards James Ogilvy of Inchmartine, was the bastard son of Sir David Ogilvy of Inchmartine. Presently, the name of his mother is not known. There is no mistake about this. It is proved by deeds dated 22 May 1467 and 6 August 1480, details of which have been added to his profile overview. Links follow:

https://catalogue.nrscotland.gov.uk/nrsonlinecatalogue/overview.asp...

https://catalogue.nrscotland.gov.uk/nrsonlinecatalogue/details.aspx...

As a consequence of his bastardry, under the law of Scotland, James Ogilvy could not inherit any land from his father (although his father could and did make a gift of certain lands to him). That is to say, following the death of his father he could not be recognized as his lawful heir.

Because he was a bastard, perhaps, his father gave James Ogilvy part of the lands of Balgally and others on 6 August 1480. Thereafter, following the death of his father's eldest lawful son, Alexander Ogilvy, younger of Inchmartine, his father also made a gift to him of the lands of Wester and Easter Inchmartine, together with the lands of Petmedil and Cragdaly. David Ogilvy of Inchmartine’s gift excluded his own liferent, and that of his wife Mariote Hay. Because Mariote Hay's liferent was secured on the lands being conveyed her permission was required. Links follows:

https://catalogue.nrscotland.gov.uk/nrsonlinecatalogue/details.aspx...

https://archive.org/details/registrummagnisi02scot/page/540/mode/1up

David Ogilvy of Inchmartine alienated Wester and Easter Inchmartine, and other lands, without the permission of James IV, King of Scots (these lands were held directly of the crown), and as a consequence of this a legal action against James Ogilvy was raised by the King.

https://catalogue.nrscotland.gov.uk/nrsonlinecatalogue/details.aspx...

James IV, King of Scot, subsequently confirmed James Ogilvy’s possession of the lands and barony of Inchmartine. A Link follows:

https://archive.org/details/registrummagnisi02scot/page/830/mode/1up

Thank you. These sources(as far as I noticed) that you now mention were missing from the profiles of both David and James, so it was unclear from where this came from. The part that I’m wondering most about though, is this part in the profile of David:
“Husband of 1. Name Not Known; 4. Name Not Known and Mariota Hay
Ex-partner of 2. Name Not Known and 3. Name Not Known ”
Where are the sources for him having 2 wives before Mariota, and what sources and why have made you think his sons are from different mistresses instead of maybe one and the same? I’m just confused why there is a need to write them separately into different profiles if their names are not knownand no sources for them are mentioned at all, instead of writing simply “unknown mistress/es” as seems to be customary in most profiles with the samekind of situation. Or if you know that they are separate mistresses and each had a different son with David, why haven’t you added sources?
Sincerely, Maria

-and where is the Partner 1. when there are only 2. and 3. now there?

Dear Maria,

You have misunderstood my intention. This is probably my fault, not yours.

Let me try to make a better job of explaining.

FIRST. We know that Sir David Ogilvy of Inchmartine was married to Mariota Hay but we do not have evidence which proves that she was the mother of any of his lawful children.

SECOND. We know that he had at least one lawful son, that is Alexander Ogilvy, who is identified as his eldest son and heir in two deeds dated 6 August 1480.

THIRD. Sir David had two bastard (natural) sons who are named in the same deeds. They may be the sons of one mother but we do not have evidence which proves this. They may be sons of different mothers, but, whatever, we do not know the names of their respective mothers.

FOURTH. Sir David had another two children, a daughter named Christian, and a son named Patrick. I have supposed that they were lawful children, because they are not specifically identified as bastards (natural). The name of their respective mothers is not known, but I have identified them as lawful children who may belong to an earlier marriage (before Mariota Hay). The possibility that there was an earlier marriage is suggested by the fact that both of these children are noticed in deeds which are dated earlier than 30 April 1492, the earliest date we presently have for Mariota Hay. His son Patrick is actually noticed in a deed dated 2 August 1449, forty-three years before Mariota Hay comes into view.

You also asked: "where is the Partner 1. when there are only 2. and 3. now there?"
Links to partners 1 and 4 follow:

Partner 1

1. Name Not Known

Partner 4

4. Name Not Known

Regards,

Neil

Okay, thank you . That makes it more clear. I suggest though someone change the birth estimation for Mariota Hay, if that is the case that David had sons such a long time before mentikns of her -because right now it's estimated much earlier than the birth of David even... it seems that she was quite a bit younger from what you are telling me.
Anyhow, have a nice weekend.

Thanks Neil for all your work here and careful explanation. It is excellently done, and carefully executed. We all benefit from this work on our world tree.

Do you need me to do anything more, or are we sorted?

Dear Sharon,

If Maria is happy I am happy to leave things as they are for the time being.

Regards,

Neil

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