Dina KATZ HESCHEL:Continue discussion

Sorry I opened another discussion, as I wrote, in recent days I have a problem writing a response to discussions, sometimes I succeed, and sometimes for a reason I do not understand, I do not succeed ...

Haim Katz - Hachoen Wartski,

I've just sent you an article about the 2 wives of Heschel, which raises questions about the identity of his first wife. Please have a look and let me know what you think.

Thanks,

Claudia

Question: I am looking at a chart from an earlier edition of UC (https://www.geni.com/documents/view?doc_id=6000000031257420879&...) which shows a spouse of Heshel as Hesia, and says she is the daughter of Moses Reb Lazers of Cracow. I just want to make sure; is UC 3rd edition walking this back and now saying it doesn't know who the other spouse of Heshel is? If so, is there an explanation?

Claudia Bullock

Thank you very much, I read ... the information you sent me preys on all the cards ..
From the information I believe to be true, I can say with certainty, that Rabbi Issachar ( That I am his descendant), is certainly from the first wife and not from the second wife (Dina)
Who was his mother, whether Miriam or another woman, after reading the information you sent me, I have no idea

As for the other children: because Dina's first husband died in 1650, it can be said with great confidence that every child born after this date is Dina's child.

Claudia Bullock

I must add one more thing: all the people in Israel I consulted + all the books I read certainly spoke of Miriam as the first wife , and Dina the second wife.No one expressed any concern about Miriam, and I was also told that
Rabbi Abraham Joshua Heschel, Head, Cracow Yeshiva
He promised his first wife (Miriam?) That after her death he would not marry any other woman ... Dina convinced him that she was great in the Torah, so he married her

Did you send the information to
Randy Schoenberg

Note: this is causing confusion in the R'Katz-Dinah tree: Duplicate tree to be isolated - no need to merge Isaac Katz and Rabbi Yitzhak HaCohen Katz, II [of Stopin and Lublin] In the first he is Dinah's son born 1628 which we know to be impossible (since they didn't marry until 1645) and in the second he is the son born ca 1608 of bat Isaiah Liberles, which seems plausible. So this is another area which can be tidied up in the rehab by merging these two and removing Dinah as the mother.

The matter of the first spouse of Heshel needs to be answered one way or another before a rehab is feasible.

This appears to be the source of the first wife information that so many are using: "When R. Naftali Katz died in 1649, R. Heschel became his successor having waited for only five years for the position since his father's death. He had also lost his first wife, the daughter of R. Moses Lazers of Brest, and remarried his second cousin, Dinah, the former wife of R. Naftali Katz" Note 1. D.K., p93 et seq.; AEA,; HaEshkol, 1902, vol. 4, p. 188 et seq.

This citation appears to be from UC (earlier edition) p 715 as quoted here https://www.geni.com/projects/Chanikas-Hatorah-Avraham-Yehoshua-Hes....

To cut to the chase, it seems that UC has dropped the earlier position, if I am not mistaken, and now does not identify who the first spouse of Heshel was. If this is so then the question for the rehab is whether the current UC position is justified.

Private User

All the sources without exception I read, talked about Miriam as a first wife.. It is certainly possible that several generations ago a book was published with this information, and it is possible that the information is incorrect, but many books copied this mistake

after reading the information Claudia sent me, I have no idea who the first wife was, whether Miriam or another woman

Haim Katz - Hachoen Wartski,

Yes, I sent the article to Randy Schoenberg.

Private User,

The passage you quoted appears to have been modified in the 3rd edition. In Volume 3, Chapter 9, page 697, it says the following:

"Together, R. Naftali Katz and R. Heschel gave their approbations to Damesek Eliezer. When R. Naftali died in 1649, R. Heschel became his successor having waited five years for the position after his father's death. He had also lost his first wife, who possibly was the daughter of Samuel Aitogs and Heschel remarried, Dinah the former wife of R. Naftali Katz."

The above comes from the 2nd paragraph of the narrative, in the section entitled "Branch B: R. Abraham Joshua Heschel of Cracow: Family Background".

Claudia

I want to add that right after Samuel Aitogs is named, there is a reference given to VeYitaldu #61.
I have been told that this is a scholarly journal that comes in a Newspaper format in Hebrew, but I am not sure where it can be obtained. Haim Katz - Hachoen Wartski, is this something you are familiar with, that you might know where to find in Israel? I would not be able to read and understand the Hebrew, but of course you would be able to.

Claudia

Private User and Haim Katz - Hachoen Wartski

Regarding which children of Heschel are associated with which of his two marriages, what is found in the 3rd edition of UC seems to basically be in line with the information at the link that Adam has provided. There is a footnote at the bottom of Chapter 9, page 695, which summarizes which child goes with which marriage as follws:

"DK, 93 et seq.; AEA; HaEshkol, 1902, 4, 188 et seq. Issue from his first wife: 1) Wife of Abraham, son of Jacob; 2) Mordecai; 3) Wife of Samson HaKohen; and 4) Grune. Issue from his second wife: 5) Esther; 6) Karindel; 7) Feigele; 8) Issachar Berish; 9) Saul and 10) Hesia. VeYitaldu #60 mentions his son Judah Leib (below G6.10) who is not mentioned in other family genealogies of Rabbi Heschel. He is also mentioned in Siftei Tzadikim by R. Joshua Heschel of Rymanow, published in Przemysl in 1883 and Kitvei HaGRI (HaGaon Reb Yitzchak) by R. Isaac of Letchov, published in 2008, which family genealogy."

That said, if it is true as Haim Katz - Hachoen Wartski has said, that Issachar Berish was born in 1630, he couldn't be Dinah's son, as the above would suggest. I will check to see what DOB it shows for him in UC.

Claudia

Private User, Haim Katz - Hachoen Wartski, Randy Schoenberg, Kevin Lawrence Hanit,

I've just noticed that the exact same family tree diagram that was in the Avotaynu article also appears in Volume 4, Chapter 11, page 1 of the 3rd edition of UC. (In fact, there is a footnote at the bottom of the page that references the Avotaynu article).

This is on the first page of the section entitled "Babad Family Beginnings". And right above the diagram there is the following entry for Heschel:

G6. Abraham Joshua Heschel of Cracow, died in 1664, married 1) first wife (unknown) and 2) Dinah.

It also says he was the father of R. Issachar Berish, died in 1690, but does not indicate when Issachar Berish was born.

Claudia

On the question of Issachar Berish's birth year, the anecdote in the Avotaynu article isn't 100% probative because perhaps he became parnas at the very young age of 27 (unlikely but not chronologically impossible). But if you look at the birth years of the children given to him on GENI, you have five children born prior to 1663 (which I take to be the earliest he could have had children and be born from Dinah and R' Heshel). So it looks like the weight of the evidence is against Issachar being Dinah's son on the basis of his age when becoming parnas and the birth years of his children.

For the R' Katz-Dinah brood, it seems Hindeh (d 1614 is impossible) and Yitzach (b 1608 or 1628 is impossible) are not Dinah's, then there are four, Judith, Shmuel, Judah, and Mordechai for whom I see no evidence but since they have no offspring I guess it's okay to leave them. And finally there is a Chaim HaKohen Katz who died in 1698 and is shown with two children so he could have been born later than 1645, I suppose, although the birth year of his spouse (ca 1615) raises an eyebrow.

Turning to R' Katz and his first spouse, there is only one child shown and I see no reason to doubt the validity of this affiliation. To this I would add the Hindeh mentioned above.

And lastly there is the Judah Leib mentioned in VeYitaldu who GENI says was born in 1640 so I gather he is a son from R' Heshel's first marriage.

This wraps up all the known offspring from the four marriages, I believe.

Does anyone want to take on the task of summarizing these discussions into a form that Kevin can execute easily? We've got lots of posts on three threads, plus a separate email thread, which will all be confusing to follow so I think a summary will be necessary.

Claudia Bullock

VeYitaldu,are articles written by Naftali Wakstein (an Israeli very well known expert on issues of rabbinical families and dynasties)

Unfortunately, I do not have this article

Claudia Bullock

As for Issachar Berish, the year of his birth and death listed in Geni are the same as the information I found ... Assuming that the information is indeed correct, it is impossible that he will be the son of Dina, he must be the son of the first wife(Miriam?)

Private User,

I believe I could provide a good summary of what has transpired, and what remains to be done, but it will take me some time, and I can't immediately do it, as I've got some other things that need to be attended to at the moment. But, as soon as I am able, I will do it.

Haim Katz - Hachoen Wartski, yes, I agree that if it is true that Issachar Berish was born in 1630, he would have had to have been the son of Heschel's first wife. I just didn't have any source for what the birth year was, as the birth year was not stated in UC. Also, if it is true, as Adam suggested, that Issachar had 5 children prior to 1663, then clearly he could not have been the son of Dinah, since Dinah didn't even marry Heschel until some time after 1649.

Claudia

I don't think VeYitaldu is necessary, because I believe that this profile Hesya Miriam Heschel is based on UC 2nd edition, so that now that 3rd edition says identity of first spouse is unknown then this profile can be easily made into an Unnamed Woman whose ancestry is unknown (there could be note about Samuel Aitogs maybe being the father).

Thanks kindly Claudia Bullock Be aware of the two Moshe Reb Lazers/Leizers from the Avotaynu chart, as I don't believe this is new data is currently reflected on GENI. I can review your summary/instructions if you want before publication. This area has been outdated since about 2006, so I'm sure a few more days or weeks isn't going to make a whole lot of difference.

Kevin Lawrence Hanit
This is the first wife: Hesya Miriam Heschel
Thanks

Kevin Lawrence Hanit I didn't mention that we don't know birth or death info either.

Kevin Lawrence Hanit Note: when this is done, there will still be a daughter named Hesya Miriam for Moshe Lazers of Cracow (who is not married to R' Heschel); this can be done as part of Claudia Bullock comprehensive instructions.

Kevin Lawrence Hanit In that case I would wait until Claudia has time to explain, She's better than I am.

Note to Claudia Bullock regarding rehab. I noticed on this chart that Chaim Katz is given to the first spouse of R' Naphtali Katz (rather than to Dinah as appears on current GENI tree): https://www.geni.com/photo/view?album_type=photos_of_me&id=6000...

Private User,

Thanks. Duly noted. I will incorporate in my summary.

Claudia

Claudia Bullock

Private User

I have new information about Dina:
According to the information, she was married to three husbands:

Her first husband was Rabbi Naftali Ginzburg
Her second husband was Rabbi Naftali Katz (who died at the age of 42)
Her third husband was: Rabbi Avraham Yehoshua Heshil ...