דינה כ"ץ-העשיל (וואהל-קצנלנבוגן), ״הגדולה״ - Dina KATZ HESCHEL ( Katzenellenbogen???)

Haim Katz - Hachoen Wartski,

Thanks for this information. In this context, I think it makes sense that I was unable to find a listing of her children in "The Unbroken Chain".

Just to clarify, I don't think that UC was actually calling in to question whether or not Dinah was from the Katzenellenbogen family. As best I understand, the issue was with regard to some confusion about her mother's lineage. But the book definitely had her father as being a Katzenellenbogen descendant. It seems that both of the men purported to be her father are claimed by their proponents to be descendants of Saul Wahl in one way or another.

Claudia

Haim Katz - Hachoen Wartski This is another frustrating situation similar to the parentage of Dinah. There are two options presented as the spouse of R' AY Heschel, one is a daughter of Rabbi Moshe Lazers Isserles, of Cracow and the other is a granddaughter. So, there is agreement as to her being a direct descendant of R' Moshe Leizer's, but uncertainty about whether the spouse is also a descendant of the K'bogen tree (not to even mention the alternatives in the K'bogen tree). Instead of putting both spouses officially on the profile, which propagates erroneous and confusing information to innocent researchers, I would instead have an unnamed placeholder spouse connected by two ungendered placeholders to R' Moshe Leyzers, and then explain briefly but fully the alternatives in 'About', and then lock the profiles. This prevents incorrect information from propagating across the entire GENI tree and is something only the curators can do.

We are speaking about a hazard of public trees: what to do when there is conflicting pedigree data and no clear reason to decide one way or the other. You can opt to 1) have all the conflicting data appear simultaneously (like what we are seeing here: two spouses), or 2) arbitrarily and possibly wrongfully select which data to use, which is what is happening with Dina's parents), or 3) do not officially enter any of the data until more evidence is available. using unnamed placeholders if appropriate, or simply leaving roles blank, while explaining the conflicting options in a commentary part of the profile. If any researcher wishes to use unofficial information in creating their own off-line trees then that is their decision, but I don't think it is a good practice to force an unproven alternative on to the entire GENI tree, nor to simply let all the unproven alternatives co-exist in a meaningless tangle. GENI is a really great concept, but it needs to inspire greater confidence and present clearer information, or people will throw up their hands in frustration.

Claudia Bullock
Private User

As much as I tried to find reliable information on the subject-I failed ... every book claims to have the reliable information ... this is one of those cases where an absolute conclusion cannot be reached ..
Regarding the husband:
Rabbi Abraham Joshua Heschel, Head, Cracow Yeshiva
Fortunately, here the information is solid and everything is fine

Haim Katz - Hachoen Wartski and Private User,

Haim,
Thanks for your insight into the solidity of the profile of Dinah's 2nd husband.

Haim and Adam,

I see that he was born in 1596, and I had been under the impression that he would have been significantly older than Dinah, of the same generation as Dinah's father. Regarding Dinah's marriage to Heschel, it says in UC: "The story goes that she had desired this second marriage to this gaon (genius), who was accustomed to study and visit in her father's house years before." Let me know what you think about this.

Also, regarding the issue of Dinah's children with her first husband, I want to point out that according to UC, it seems that the Katz husband had many children with a prior wife, so it is quite possible that some of those children could easily have been mis-attributed to Dinah. In UC, it says "He was the progenitor of a very prominent rabbinical Katz family, through his first wife, daughter of Judah Lieberl's (that son-in-law of Lieber, also Liberlish, died in Prague in 1644), son of Isaac, Primator and Judge of Prague." When I look at this wife's profile in Geni, only 1 of her husband's many children have been attributed to her, with all of Katz's remaining children being attributed to Dinah. It seems to me that many of these children of Dinah may very well belong to Katz's first wife.

Claudia

I just posted to the other thread, coincidentally speaking about many of the same issues!

PS: At this moment Dinah, with 16 offspring, is outdistancing even Dvorah Drucker (spouse of Shaul Wahl) who only has 15! I wonder what the GENI records is?

Please see post by Claudia Bullock of 4/11/2022 at 9:44 pm here: https://www.geni.com/discussions/247492 for complete resolution of this issue.

Randy Schoenberg

Thanks for fire-stopping this. Here are the few remaining edits:

A) Rbzn. Dina Katz Heschel 's mother is correctly identified as Wife of Judah Wahl's but her mother's father is wrong. She is currently attached to Rabbi Moshe Lazers Isserles, of Cracow when her actual father should be Moshe Lazers Isserles (d. 1661) of Cracow. The formerly named Moshe Reb Leizers of Vilna is a different person as will be detailed below..
This edit involves: 1) re-naming Dinah’s maternal grandfather, to Moshe Lazers Isserles of Cracow (d. 1661) while keeping his parents and offspring the same, except for 2) disconnecting Rabbi Jacob Eliezer Isserles, Vilner as the son of the newly named Moshe Lazers Isserles of Cracow and of Wife of Moshe Lazers Isserles, and instead renaming Jacob Eliezer Isserles, Vilner as Rabbi Jacob Eliezer Katzin and giving him a new father Moshe Reb Leizers Katzin of Vilna, d. 1634 (who does not have a profile currently on Geni and whose parents are unknown; and the mother of Jacob Eliezer Katzin is unknown as well). NB: Verification of the six remaining siblings of 'Wife of Judah Wahl's' is beyond the scope of this study so these should remain as they are as offspring of the newly named Moshe Lazers Isserles of Cracow and of Wife of Moshe Lazers Isserles.

B) Please put note in ‘about’ section of 1st wife of Avraham Yehoshua Heschel indicating that she may have been a daughter of Samuel Aitogs. This was mentioned in UC, and a reference was given to VeYitaldu #61 by Naftali Vakstein.

Randy Schoenberg Please note the following for further review:

The Unbroken Chain” does not provide a comprehensive list of Dinah’s children, that would tell us who each of her children were, and which ones should be attributed to each of her 2 husbands. However, there is a list of her 2nd husband’s children, indicating which of those children should be attributed to each of his 2 wives! According to this account, the children that Dinah had with her 2nd husband, Heschel, would be Esther, Karindel, Feigele, Issachar Berish, Saul, and Hesia. Currently, in Geni, Esther and Issachar Berish have been assigned to Heschel’s first wife, because the dates of birth shown on their profiles indicate births that were prior to Heschel’s marriage to Dinah. However, I do not know what the evidence is to support the correctness of these dates of birth, so this needs to be determined and documented. In the event it is determined that the actual dates of birth were after 1649, then we must conclude that these were children of Heschel and Dinah, as described in “The Unbroken Chain”.

It is possible that one or more of the children listed in Geni as Dinah’s children with her first husband might not be hers at all. The following chart from “The Lurie Legacy”, by Neil Rosenstein, indicates that Chaim Katz was a child belonging to the first spouse of Naftali Katz: https://www.geni.com/photo/view?album_type=photos_of_me&id=......

It also appears, based on the discussion here Lusia Ashkenazi-Heilprin that Rbzn. Dina Katz Heschel and Rabbi Naftali Hirsch Katz, ABD Lublin, "Peirot Genosar" are the parents of R' Samson HaKohen

Referring only to the Katzin part of the tree here are a few necessary edits connected to what has been discussed here and you've already done: 1) wife, Shulem Meisels needs to be made the daughter of Shprintze Isserles, [RaMa #3 wife] and Rabbi Moses ben Israel Isserles, "RaMA" 2) at the moment Rabbi Naftali Hirsch Günzburg is shown as having two RIvke spouses who are actually the same person: Rivele Rivka Gunzburg and Rebecca (Rivke) Katzenellenbogen The way to resolve this correctly is to detach Rebecca (Rivke) Katzenellenbogen from her parents (Shmuel Yehuda Katzenellenbogen and wife, Shmuel Yehuda Katzenellenbogen) and then merge the two Rivkes so that all the children assigned to Rebecca (Rivke) Katzenellenbogen and Rabbi Naftali Hirsch Günzburg pass over to Rivele Rivka Gunzburg (the father remains the same). WHen done you should have Judah Zalman Wahl's and Wife of Judah Wahl's as the parents of Rivke, spouse of Rabbi Naftali Hirsch Günzburg and their children will be the 6 children currently assigned to Rebecca (Rivke) Katzenellenbogen The true paternity of Rivke, spouse of R' Naftali Hirsch Gunzberg is also addressed in the Avotaynu article which we have been referring to throughout this discussion: Avotaynu, Volume XXII, #2, Summer 2006, 26-28, The Significance of the Wives of Rebbe Reb Heschel of Cracow for Rabbinic Genealogy. I am not going to review other sections of this rehab for further confirmation.

Correction of type: "I am now going to review the other sections of this rehab for further confirmation."

Referring to the daughters of Rabbi Abraham Joshua Heschel, Head, Cracow Yeshiva what you have done is create two Esthers: Esther Shapira, of Hildesheim and Esther Heschel I have no evidence for their being two Esthers who were daughters of R' AY Heschel. If you do then fine. Otherwise you should decide where you are going to put the one Esther. Other than that, I believe when the above edits are completed, the Geni tree will be up to date with the information from the Avotaynu article, and much better than before. The uncertainties regarding that third sister of Rbzn. Dina Katz Heschel (who may or may not be named Lucia), and the Heilprin tree she is married into should wait until Chapter XVII of the UC is completed..

PS: Good job Randy!

PSS: I just noticed one more thing connected to the corrective edits described in my post of 9/24/2022 at 5:41pm: wife, Avraham Meisles should be detached from Rebecca (Rivke) Katzenellenbogen There is no evidence that these two women were sisters. Rivke does have a sister who is married to an Avraham Heiplrin but not to an Avraham Meisels.

Avraham Meisles wife was daughter of Rabbi Yosef Kalmens of Lublin.

I have not studied the nuptials of Avraham Meisles so I cannot comment on who is his correct spouse. My point here is that only two sisters of Rivele Rivka Gunzburg are known from history and neither of them is the spouse of Avraham Meisles.

https://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=46421&st=&pgn...

I'm not sure I am reading the excerpt correctly. It seems to be giving the sons of Rabbi Isaac Wolf Bunim-Meisels, of Vilna starting with Rabbi Moshe Ben Yitzhak HaCohen Bunems Meisels, Ba'al "Mahadura Batra" and continuing with R' Avraham, son-in-law of Yosef Kalmens of Lublin, and then ending with Rabbi Simon-Binyamin son Isaac Wolf Meisels, of Vilna son-in-law of Hirsh Delhiner. However, the Rabbi Abraham Meisels I referred to above is the son of Rabbi Moshe Ben Yitzhak HaCohen Bunems Meisels, Ba'al "Mahadura Batra" rather than Rabbi Isaac Wolf Bunim-Meisels, of Vilna Are these two different Avrahams or is there an error in the GENI tree?

Netanel Isaiah Frisch Can you consider the following and provide your opinion?

This is a quote from the blogpost summary of Wakstein http://toladot.blogspot.com/2011/04/blog-post_15.html?m=1 :
"Apparently, the aforementioned Rabbi Shimon Wolf had several marriages. A] The first one's name and her father's name are unknown. From this marriage, his daughter was born - the wife of the Shach. B] The second, Mrs. Esther A.H., the sister of the Shach. From this pairing, the mother of the "bright face" was born . C] In a third marriage, he married Martha Bila AH, daughter of Rabbi Hirsch Dahliner."

It seems Vakstein is saying that wife (A) was the mother-in-law of Shakh, wife (B) was Shakh's sister, Esther, and wife (C) was the daughter of R' Hirsch Delhiner. Thus wife (C) is in accord with the article you presented here on 9/29/2022 at 4:37pm, but now see below..

Moving forward, this profile R' Tzvi Hersch Delhiner has the daughter Beila Meisels (Tauber?) who in turn is given the role of being the mother-in-law of Shakh via her daughter Yenta Leah Katz This contradicts with the Vakstein information which says that the mother-in-law of Shakh was wife (A) not the Delhiner wife (C).

Meanwhile on GENI we can see another spouse who does not seem to be mentioned by Vakstein at all (and she is the sister of Chanukat HaTorah): wife, Benjamin Zev Wolf Ashkenazi

Unless R' Hirsh Delhiner is the same person as Rabbi Yaakov Hirsch Levenshtam, ABD Brisk & Lublin then it seems we are now speaking about four wives of Rabbi Simon-Binyamin son Isaac Wolf Meisels, of Vilna

Do you think it is possible that R' Tzvi Hersch Delhiner and Rabbi Yaakov Hirsch Levenshtam, ABD Brisk & Lublin are the same person? The latter was also known as R' Yakov Hirsch Lubliner. If not then we should have four wives for Rabbi Simon-Binyamin son Isaac Wolf Meisels, of Vilna it seems to me..

And also it seems clear that the son Avraham, mentioned here https://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=46421&st=&pgn..., who married the daughter of R' Yosef Kalmans of Lublin, should be added to Rabbi Isaac Wolf Bunim-Meisels, of Vilna

I have just confirmed that wife, Benjamin Zev Wolf Ashkenazi is not mentioned in the 3rd Edition of Rosenstein, suggesting that the connection of this person, presuming that she in fact exists, to Rabbi Simon-Binyamin son Isaac Wolf Meisels, of Vilna as a wife is an error. That means we are back to the three wives mentioned by Vakstein. Now all that remains is to identify who are the proper offspring of each wife.

Netanel Isaiah Frisch Some work I did today raised a new possibility. In the Jacobi Papers, Shimon Binyamin is given a spouse called "Unknown Bunems" who is the daughter of Gershon Bunems. He then calls Rabbi Simha Bonem Benjamin Wulff and Berend Baruch Minden ben Simon Wulff as the offspring of this union. p 156 (14.5, 13.9, 13.10, 12.11 and 12.12) Vol 1.
Jacobi readily admits that he created a conjectural "Unknown Bunems" to connect Gershon Bunems the elder to the grandson of Rabbi Simon-Binyamin son Isaac Wolf Meisels, of Vilna called Gerson Wulff in other words, to connect the Gershon the younger to Gershon the elder. Based on the previously discussed evidence and before seeing what Jacobi saidI I had concluded the that the mother of Rabbi Simha Bonem Benjamin Wulff and Berend Baruch Minden ben Simon Wulff was Beila Meisels (Tauber?)

I find it curious that Jacobi doesn't mention Hersh Dahliner at all in this analysis and instead chooses to conjecture on Gershon Bunems..

I am wondering if perhaps the Beila bat Hirsch Dahliner could be one and the same as the "Unknown Bunems' bat Gershon Bunems. I am not familiar with the surname Dahliner so I don't know how much credence to give that appellation. I also wonder if perhaps researchers could have used Hirsch in place of Gershon, or vice versa. Do you know anything about the surname Dahliner?

Private User

You are absolutely right,
Rabbi Simon-Binyamin son Isaac Wolf Meisels, of Vilna

He was married several times, and I (for example) am his descendant from his first wife, whose identity is unknown, and I am not a descendant of
R' Tzvi Hersch Delhiner

As it now appears in Geni

I came across many mistakes that people make in Geni with wrong mergers, people who like to cut whole branches (just because they think something in the branch is wrong), and of course many fakes...

I'm tired of commenting, because my comments are not corrected... so I'm silent

Where is a record or documents of Rabbi Shimon Wolf Wilner other wives? For Beila Delhiner exist several.

To not rely on genealogista guessing and assuming when you have records.