Invitation Request

Thank you for your message.
Do you know Rabbi Podkover's Y-DNA haplogroup ?

I also had a suggestion for an invite.
Mark Liebermann has the Y-Dna that should go back to

The Prophet R' Aryeh Zachariah of Kracow Lieberman
( the grandfather of R' Ephraim Fischel Parnas Lieberman, A.B.D. Ludmir and secretary of the Council of the Four Lands)

I wrote to Mark to tell him about this project still awaiting his reply. If someone could invite him and list the DNA

Private User

Cheers

Hi, I do not know Rabbi Bendet Podkover's haplogroup.

However, my cousin is a direct patrilineal descendant of his and is willing to take a Y-DNA test.

I would be very grateful if you could let me know how we might proceed in testing him.

Shabbat shalom and thank you.

Private User

Private User Private User Thanks for the new initiatives. I have taken note and added both profiles to the project.

One thing that is of interest is that the haplogroup provided by Private User )R-L4) happens to be on the same direct ydna line as the one provided by Ilya Lipkin (R-Z43, and discovered by Yoav from his match on FTDNA to Ilya). This situation merits an upgrade of the Ilya Liplkin Y111 to compare to the R-L4.

For information about how to request funding please see the next discussion which I will be posting momentarily.

PS: The two new ydna identifications will appear on the Index after the next update.

Private User, thank you very much for this exciting update. I will write to Ilya to see if we can get an upgrade.

Am I correct in saying that this means Rabbi Dov Ber of Plunge descends from The Prophet R' Aryeh Zachariah of Kracow Lieberman?

Additionally, does this situation merit an upgrade for Private User?

Private User this is a spectacular coincidence seeing as we were discussing this very ydna lineage earlier today. While we can say with certainty that the two rabbis share a common ydna ancestor, at this point it is too soon to speculate as to how recently the Lipkin and Lieberman lines connect. I will need to compare: Y111 STRs, non-matching SNPs, and ultimate haplogroups to estimate the dates of the most recent common ancestor. There are too many unknown variables at this point to say anything more. Mark doesn't need to do more testing since he seems to have already made the Big Y test (this is subject to confirmation).

Private User, indeed an amazing coincidence. Shall I follow the steps you outlined here (https://www.geni.com/discussions/245769), and contact Ilya, asking him to join the ftDNA project?

Many thanks.

Private User Ilya has been notified of this discussion in the post of 4:18pm so with any luck he will appear out of nowhere. Since Ilya has already done some FTDNA testing, I would only need his authorization to begin a request for funding, if this is how Ilya wishes to proceed.

From a rabbinical history perspective this is already an interesting connection, putting together in one tree the figures of R' Ephraim (Fischel) Lieberman of the Council of Four Lands, Ysroel Salanter (and Musar), and Salanter's granddaughter's marriage to Chaim Ozer Grodzenczik (and Agudath Israel).

I am still not sure whether there is any connection between R' Ephraim Lieberman and the older, prominent Fischel family from Cracow (Rabbi Ephraim Fishel). This will be for the rabbinical scholars to consider.

Private User

It seems that we have two lineages to look at -- the Bendet Podkover one, and the Lipkin lineage.

I have just written to my cousin who is a son-by-son descendant of Rabbi Bendet Podkover. I will keep you updated.

I think it may be that Ilya is not active on Geni. I'll email him about the project.

It will really be a breakthrough if there is a connection to The Prophet R' Aryeh Zachariah of Kracow Lieberman, as not much is known about Rav Yisrael Salaner's Yichus (relatively). If Ilya upgrades, will we be able to determine whether The Prophet R' Aryeh Zachariah of Kracow Lieberman is Rabbi Dov Ber of Plunge's ancestor? How does the process work in terms of finding each generation, once the DNA shows something to be the case?

Shavua tov to all,

Yoav

Private User Private User

Mark has joined the project and that gives us an opportunity to do a preliminary screen even before any further testing: Mark, can you check your FTDNA y111 match list to see if you find Ilya Lipkin there? If you do please let us know the number in the Genetic Distance column. This will give us a rough approximation of how recently you had a common ancestor and how likely you are to be in the same haplogroup.

Yoav, to answer your comment/questions:

1) the Bendet Podkover line is also under live scrutiny,

2) We know from the genealogies that Ilya and Mark cannot share a common ydna ancestor from after about 1660, which is when Dov Ber's tree begins. Depending on what the ultimate haplogroups, non-matching variants, and STR data show about the time to the most recent common ancestor, it will be possible to conclude as follows: If the estimated time to the most recent common ancestor coincides more or less with the dates of Zachariah HaNavi, then HaNavi could be the ancestor of Dov Ber, but we could not be sure of that (perhaps it was HaNavi's father or grandfather, etc. who was the connecting point between the two trees: the common ancestor estimates are not precise enough to say for sure which exact one of various nearby generations was the source of the two sub-branches, especially if one considers that the dates for these historical figures are also estimates: we do not know for sure when HaNavi was born: the best we can do is say whether it would be a reasonable and fair hypothesis or just impossibe). If the common ancestry estimate is for a time considerably prior to HaNavi's dates then the safe conclusion would be that HaNavi and Dov Ber shared a common ancestor from before HaNavi and therefore Dov Ber is not a direct descendant, but rather a ydna cousin of HaNavi's.

Obtaining the Y111 Genetic Distance between Mark and Ilya will be a good way to know whether a common ancestor from about the time of HaNavi remains within the realm of possibility.

Please reply to one of these two threads for further discussion on these two projects:
1) Rabbi Baruch Bendet Podkover: https://www.geni.com/discussions/245826
2) Rabbi Zacharia HaNavi (Lieberman), and Rabbi Ysroel Lipkin Salanter to Dov Ber Lipkin: https://www.geni.com/discussions/245828

Many thanks for starting these separate discussions, Private User. That's very helpful.