Manasses de Ramerupt, Bishop of Troyes - Source for parentage.

In a brief notice which would have been entirely modified if texts known since then had been used, M. H. d'Arbois de Jubainville had to content himself, on the origin of the lords of Ramerupt, with the following information provided by two old historians of the diocese of Troyes: in the 10th century there was a Countess of Arcis-sur-Aube, Lady of Ramerupt, named Hersende:

Becoming a widow of Count Helpuin (no doubt he inherited these two lands from her, since it was she who disposes of it), brother of Count Hilduin de Montdidier, she gave her county of Arcis to her son Hilduin, kept until her death Ramerupt where, in agreement with her eldest son, she had a church built within the walls of the castle and placed it under the patronage of Notre-Dame: this is where she had the relics of Saint Bausange. This was happening. around 970.

Should we point out that these old authors, Camuzat and Guerrois, nowhere mention the county of Montdidier among the possessions of the lords of Ramerupt? Aubry de Trois-Fontaines and, even better, the rare contemporary documents do the same. Hilduin, son of Hersende, succeeded him, after his death, in the lordship of Ramerupt. He had a brother named Manasses, whom contemporary testimonies represent as "vir sanctitate plenus" or "vir sanctus": having become bishop of Troyes, he left a revered memory and died in 991.

Hilduin, it must be admitted, on the contrary distressed his pious brother and, if we are to believe Camuzat, “multa crudelia commiserat facinora”. Des Guerrois says all the bad things possible. In short, they persuaded him to expiate his faults in a very benign way and, no doubt, that was all that could be obtained from these rough and difficult penitents: they persuaded him to make a pilgrimage to Jerusalem, which had the advantage of letting its ordinary victims breathe.

He left in 992 with Adson, the holy abbot of Montierender; but Adson, who had announced his embarkation in a letter to his brothers, died at sea. Of Hilduin we know only his departure: we do not know whether he died in Palestine or after his return. He left two sons; the eldest, named Hilduin II, also succeeded his father in the lordship of Ramerupt; the second was Count of Dammartin-en-Goële; he was given the first name of his holy uncle Manasses, and it is permissible to wonder if it was not to his wife Constance that he owed the county of Dammartin; finally, he had a daughter, Isabelle.

Hilduin, second of the name, appears around 1025; representing Eudes, count of Blois and Champagne, he agrees with Francon, bishop of Paris, on the subject of the avorie of Rozoy-en-Brie.

[Note that the family patriarch, Helpuin, had a brother also named Hilduin who apparently died young and isn't counted among the Hilduins of the Ramerupt-Roucy line.]

Cawley unfortunately based his opinions on the work of M. H. d'Arbois de Jubainville which was disproven by Henri Moranville. The lineage and titles should look more like this:

1. UNKNOWN Parents

2. HILDUIN, count of Montdidier

2. HELPUIN (m. HERSENDE

3. HILDUIN I, 1st Lord Ramerupt (spouse unknown)

3. MANASSES, Bishop of Troyes (d. 991 sans progeny)

4. HILDUIN II, 2nd Lord Ramerupt "also Count of Roucy by virtue of his marriage to Adele de Roucy," one of his two wives (the other wife is unknown to me at this time). I'm not sure why he is shown as both Hilduin II and III, but I think the elder Hilduin, lord of Montdidier somehow has something to do with that ambiguity.

4. Manasses, Count Dammartin (m. Constance of France)

4. Isabelle

Child of Hilduin II by his unknown wife:

5. Manasses, "Calva Asina" (m. Béatrix de Hainaut the widow of Ebles, Comte de Roucy -- Adele de Roucy's father

Children of Hilduin II by Adele de Roucy:

5. Ebles II, Count de Roucy (m. Sybille de Apulia daughter of Robert Guiscard, Duke of Apulia and Sichelgaita de Salerno)

5. Andre, lord of d'Arcis and of Ramerupt (spouse unknown to me at this time)

5. Seven Daughters

__________________________________________________________

Evidently Henri Moranville was a reputable French historian/librarian/genealogist and author of many textbooks.

https://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=inauthor:%22Henri+Moranvi...

https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q29515305

https://catalog.hathitrust.org/Search/Home?lookfor=henri%20moranvil...

https://catalog.hathitrust.org/Search/Home?lookfor=%22Moranville%CC...=

I find Manassès 'Calva Asina' de Montdidier here on Geni, but imho incorrectly connected to the Big Tree.

Again I find fragmentation and duplication of rather significant parts of the Big Tree, possibly due to the lack of consensus with regard to the relevant facts surrounding the various individual members of this large, extended family, and partly perhaps because they haven't been thoroughly researched by their managers.

Cawley confirms the marriage of Manasses "Calva Asina" to Beatrix Hainault. So it is rather astonishing to see him here married to her duplicate: Beatrice de Montdidier

MANASSES (-after 4 Feb 1031). Robert II King of France confirmed the donation of "Manasses comes" to Chartres Notre-Dame by charter dated 4 Feb 1031, signed by "…Manasses comitis, Hilduini comitis fratris eius, filiorum eius Manassis et Hilduini, Burcardo de Montemorenciaco, Evrardi filii Hilduini de Britoglio, Amalrici de Monteforti, Milonis de Caprosa…"[631]. same person as...? MANASSES “Calva-asina” ). The Genealogiæ Scriptoris Fusniacensis names "comes Suessionis et comes de Dommartin et comes de Ronaco et Manasses cui agnomen Calva-asina" as brothers of "Helduino comiti de Ramerut", specifying that Manassès married (as her second husband) "prefatus comes Helduinus predicti Ebali uxorem dictam Beatricem, sororum videlicet suam"[632]. Some creative interpretation of this passage is necessary to make sense of it, including the hypotheses that the wife of Hilduin [III] married the comte de Soissons As her second husband (see above), and that the comte de Dammartin was related more remotely (as discussed more in PARIS REGION NOBILITY). If these hypotheses are incorrect, it would be uncertain that Manassès “Calva-asina” was the same person as the son of Hilduin [III] who is named in the charter dated 4 Feb 1031 which is quoted above. m ([1021]) as her second husband, BEATRIX de Hainaut, widow of EBLES [I] Comte de Roucy, daughter of REGINAR IV Comte de Hainaut & his wife Hedwige de France. The Genealogiæ Scriptoris Fusniacensis names "Beatricem" daughter of "Hadevidem…comitissam Hainonensium", specifying that she married "Ebalus de Roceio, cuius frater fuit Lebaldus de Malla et soror Iveta comitissa de Roitest" and later "Manasses cui agnomen Calva-asina"[633]. Manassès & his wife had three children:

http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/chamdampjo.htm#_Toc494628372

Manasses de Ramerupt, Bishop of Troyes is my 30th great uncle
Constance de France, heritiere de Dammartin is my 27th great aunt.
Ebles 1er de Roucy, comte de Roucy, comte de Reims is my 27th great grandfather.
Hildouin III de Ramerupt, II. comte de Montdidier is my second cousin 29 times removed.
Hilduin I d'Arcis-Sur-Aube, 1st comte de Montdidier, d’Arcis-sur-Aube et de Ramerupt is my 29th great grandfather.
Hildouin II de Ramerupt, I. comte de Montdidier is my 30th great grandfather.
Manassès 'Calva Asina' de Montdidier is my 27th great uncle.
Manassès, comte de Dammartin is my 29th great grandfather.
Helpuin Unknown is my 30th great grandfather.
Beatrice de Montdidier is my 27th great aunt.
Adelaide de Roucy, comtesse de Montdidier is my 26th great grandmother.
Berthilde de Ponthieu is my 29th great grandmother.
Hersende d'Arcis is my 30th great grandmother.
Béatrix de Hainaut is my 27th great grandmother.

Hello, cousin! Indeed, a family group with many appreciative descendants.

Manasses de Ramerupt, Bishop of Troyes is my first cousin 33 times removed.
Constance de France, heritiere de Dammartin is my 29th great aunt.
Ebles 1er de Roucy, comte de Roucy, comte de Reims is my third cousin 26 times removed.
Hildouin III de Ramerupt, II. comte de Montdidier is my 37th great uncle.
Hilduin I d' Arcis-Sur-Aube, 1st comte de Montdidier,
d'Arcis-Sur-Aube et de Ramerupt is my 37th great grandfather.

Hello, cousin Irma! Manasses is my first cousin, too (30x).