Rabbi Akiva Hakohen Katz, ABD Saloniki (Alter of Salonika) - Birth and Death Year Adjustments

Started by Private User on Tuesday, November 9, 2021
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Private User

To Persons Interested:

On the basis of this source (https://www.geni.com/documents/view?doc_id=6000000177918049832) I believe an adjustment of birth year to circa 1450 for the son of R' Akiva the Alter is merited. This is because the other persons mentioned in the source (R' Zacuto, Saba, and I. Karo) were born around 1450 as well. If R' Yitzach of Galata lived in Salonika for a time 'with his father' as stated in this source, then his father would have had to be alive circa 1496. I propose that R' Akiva the Alter's dates be adjusted from circa 1425 to circa 1500 (this is a closed profile so I cannot edit).

Private User

In all the sources I have read (and i read a lot), other than the fact that he is a descendant of Aaron the Priest, no information is written about his parents.
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Have you come across information about them and we can continue with the family tree in this branch as well?

Private User

Haim Wartski, HaCohen

I have not found any recorded genealogy pre-Akiva the Elder, but there is good evidence that R'Akiva is in the Cohanic Modal genetic tree, which if everything we believe is correct, is the line of Aaron the Priest: the genetic evidence supports the legend of R' Akiva's descent from Aaron. When there is sufficient evidence to write a report I'll post a URL here.

Private User

I thank you very much.
As for being a descendant of Aharon HaCohen, I had no doubt about it,

there is the issue of whether he was indeed from Spain / Portugal, and why in some of the sources it is written that he was from Spain, and in some it is written that he was from Portugal.
I can only guess why, but I have no solid information

What is the source for the 1496 date I see for the deaths of Yitzhak and his son Akiva?

I found interesting information about him today, and there it is written that he is a descendant of Rabbi Yehuda hacassid.
If I remember correctly, Wakstein told me that Rabbi Yehuda was from a Levite family and therefore Rabbi Akiva could be his descendant only through an ancestral mother ... perhaps this information will make it possible to find more information about his ancestors/

link to the information I found:
https://beta.otzar.org/#/b/156805/p/-1/t/1635957858204/fs/ZQJzluCyt...

Private User

Randy Schoenberg Looks like the source is Kayerling via his sources listed there: Frumkin, Eben Shemuel, pp. 111 et seq.;
S. Kohn, A Zsidók Tör Ténete Magyarorszagon, i. 227 et seq.;
Ha-Nesher, iv. 110 et seq. Concerning Akiba's descendants, see Meir Perels, Megillat Yuḥasin.
https://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/1037-akiba-ha-kohen-of-...
Scheiber puts it differently: https://www.encyclopedia.com/religion/encyclopedias-almanacs-transc...: he says "In 1496 Akiva was still living in Buda. Later forced to leave Hungary as a result of the slanderous allegations of jealous Hungarian magnates, he settled in Prague where he established a yeshivah.".
I gather that 1496 may be the end of the Buda period but there were more years in Prague, so I guess it would be safe to say 'After 1496' for Akiva of Buda.
For his father I see no sources, but I am going to check the book mentioned as a source at the top of his 'About' section: "Sources: A world apart: a memoir of Jewish life in nineteenth century Galicia. Author: Joseph Margoshes, Ira Robinson, Rebecca Margolis. Page: p. 184" Be back soon with that.

Private User

Haim Wartski, HaCohen Interesting information. I am having trouble with finding R' Yehuda HaChassid. Can you specify his url on GENI? Thanks.

Private User

Haim Wartski, HaCohen What I believe may be happening is that the R'Akiva's ancestry is from both Spain and Portugal. The other rabbis mentioned here https://www.geni.com/documents/view?doc_id=6000000177918049832 are were born in the Kingdom of Castille in Spain. The association of R' Yitzach HaCohen Katz with Rabbis Sabaa, Zacuto, and Caro could suggest that he too was born somewhere in Castille and that he, like them, was able to escape the forced conversion of 1497. So I believe it would be reasonable to presume that R' Yitzach was born at about the same time as the three rabbis (circa 1450) and that he was of Spanish descend but was in Portugal in 1497 when he was able to escape to Saloinka. It seems to me that his father was already in Salonica at that time, perhaps having opted to go there rather than Portugal (this remains to be fully understood). But in any case, it seems unlikely based on the above that R'Yitzach was born in Salonika, and if not, then his father too must have been in Castille around 1450. Along these same lines, if would seem unlikely for R' Yitzach's son R'Akiva of Uban to have been born before about 1470 and unlikely that he was born in Salonika. So I am presuming that all three generations were born in Castille roughly in 1430, 1450, and 1470. When R'Akiva of Uban went to Salonika is also a question: if he was already leaving Hungary for Prague in 1496, then he must have arrived in Hungary well before 1496, which means he must have departed Castile earlier than his father, probably first going to Salonika (perhaps traveling with his grandfather, or going to where his grandfather already was). I think what was throwing off this investigation were the birth years and places of R' Akiva the Elder and R' Yitzach previously posted on GENI and which now appear as being too early and in the wrong place, considering the alleged facts about R' Yitzach and the Portuguese conversions of 1497.

Private User

This is the profile of Rabbi Yehuda hachassid
Rabbi Yehudah HeChassid

As for Spain / Portugal, this does not surprise me at all. Many Ashkenazi Jews They are of Sephardic Jewish descent, most of them as a result of the deportation, some of whom moved to Ashkenazi countries before the deportation.
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I have quite a few such grandparents. I also found that the grandparents of the Ramban (his mother's parents), are my great grandparents
Some time ago I was working on the branch of the kozker rebbe (my great grandfather 4), and he also has Spanish roots. I showed this branch to my cousin who is son after son descendant of the kozker rebbe (from his second wife)And he also gerer chassid,He believed that the origin of the kozker rebbe from all branches is Ashkenazi only תAnd he was surprised,.

Private User

According to the profile in geni of Rabbi Yehuda hacassid,he was born and died in Germany.
It is very possible that the origin of Rabbi Akiva Katz's family is from Spain / Portugal, and his mother is of Ashkenazi descent

Private User

Haim Wartski, HaCohen I shall keep that in mind. I believe also that there are Sephardim whose origins are in the Ashkenazic SHuM. When things were bad around the SHuM circa 1250 CE, some from there may have gone to a more hospitable Castile, remaining in Castile until 1500. So some of these families, HaCohen Katz among them, could have been making a long loop from Ashkenzi to Sephardi and then back to Ashkenazi.This may explain the ease with which R'Akiva of Uban's descendants merged back into the heart of the Ashkenazic rabbinate. There is still much to be learned....

Private User

You're right, this is an option

Rabbeinu Asher BEN YECHIEL (who is also one of my great-grandfathers) is an example of a Jew of Ashkenazi descent who moved to Spain, and was an A.B.D.Toledo
his profile:
Rabbeinu Asher ben Yechiel, רא''ש

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