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Gerrit Willemsz Nieuwoudt, b11 - are Gerrit Willemsz and Gerrit Nieuwoudt the same?

Started by Sharon Doubell on Sunday, October 3, 2021
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Sharon Doubell C
10/3/2021 at 8:54 AM

Gert Thomas Willemse says of Gerrit Nieuwoudt, b11

I have some reservations about the generally accepted notion that Gerrit Willemsz and Gerrit Nieuwoudt is one and the same. If Gerrit was adopted by Izaac Nieuwoudt, as is generally accepted, surely this would be reflected in the Nieuwoudt family household as per the Munster Rolls? Yet, this is not the case as the Munster Rolls from 1724 to 1726 reflect the existence of only the children Jeremias, Helena, Alida & Johannes.

Also, If Izaac Nieuwoudt formally adopted Gerrit Willemsz, with concomitant name change, why not also his sister Suzanna Willemsz by the same mother?
Sharon Doubell C
10/3/2021 at 8:56 AM

cf Gerrit Willemsz Willemse

Isaac Nieuwoudt SV/PROG
Sharon Doubell C
10/3/2021 at 9:09 AM

Please read: http://www.e-family.co.za/ffy/exhibits/was-gerrit-nieuwoudt-really-...
Sharon Doubell C
10/3/2021 at 9:27 AM

Gerrit Willemse's baptism:
https://www.wikitree.com/photo.php/2/20/Willemse-51-1.jpg

2 May 1717

Gerrit

Parents: Gerrit Willemse & Anna born van Wyk
Sharon Doubell C
10/3/2021 at 9:49 AM

Helena Nieuwoudt 's baptism:

  • South Africa, Dutch Reformed Church Registers
  • Name: Helena Niewout
  • Event Type: Baptism
  • Event Date: 09 Oct 1718
  • Event Place: Cape Town, Cape of Good Hope, South Africa
  • Father's Name: Isaac Niewout
  • Mother's Name: Anna Van Wijk

GS Film number: 2214107 , Digital Folder Number: 4322620 , Image Number: 00104

Sharon Doubell C
10/3/2021 at 9:55 AM

Gert Thomas Willemse you say: "the Munster Rolls from 1724 to 1726 reflect the existence of only the children Jeremias, Helena, Alida & Johannes."
Do you have links to these rolls?

Mansell Upham says "Isaak Nieuwoudt and his wife appear in the muster rolls (Cape District) for freeburghers for the first time in 1725 - one year after their marriage. 3 children are
enumerated: 2 sons and 1 daughter. Presumably these are Helena (b1), Gerrit (b3 [sic]) and
Johannes (b5). Jeremias (b2) and Alida (b4) appear to have died in infancy." http://www.e-family.co.za/ffy/exhibits/was-gerrit-nieuwoudt-really-...
Sharon Doubell C
10/3/2021 at 10:05 AM

but Richard Ball says

Jeremias Nieuwoudt born 1720 baptized 17 November 1720, Cape Town 10

Notes: He was still living in September1739 when he was
mentioned in a report to the Council of Policy 'Vrijdag den 4 do.:
’s Morgens vertrocken na Goeijemans Craal, en op de weg
ontmoeten ons Jeremias Nieuwout en heeft aan ons rapport
gedaan ... '.
(Resolutions of the Council of Policy of Cape of Good Hope,
Cape Town Archives Repository, C. 112, pp. 3-33.
Saturdag den 31 October 1739, ’s voormiddags.)
from TANAP web site. http://www.ballfamilyrecords.co.uk/kfp/I303.html

Gert Thomas Willemse
10/3/2021 at 11:31 PM

Sharon, the original Muster Rolls are on eGGSA at https://www.eggsa.org/records/index.php/muster-rolls/muster-rolls-t....

In these records the Nieuwoudt children reflected are: 1724 - 2 sons, 2 daughters; 1725 - 2 sons, 1 daughter, 1726 - 2 sons, 1 daughter, 1727 3 sons, 1 daughter. This does correspond to Jeremias living a number of years at least, whereas Alida probably passed away between 1724 and 1725.

It seems anomalous that the records for 1724 reflect the existence of 2 sons when Johannes's birth is reflected on Geni and elsewhere as only being in 1725 and this needs to be verified by actual records.
Sharon Doubell C
10/3/2021 at 11:44 PM

Gert Thomas Willemse can you repost the whole link - that's giving me a 404 :-/
Sharon Doubell C
10/4/2021 at 12:37 AM

Looking at children for whom we have baptism info:

1724 - 2 sons, 2 daughters

1725 - 2 sons, 1 daughter

1726 - 2 sons, 1 daughter

1727 3 sons, 1 daughter.

J P Weyers
10/4/2021 at 12:45 AM

On his profile says born Ansterdam ?
Sharon Doubell C
10/4/2021 at 12:47 AM

DVP think a Gerrit Nieuwoudt was born c 1722.

Questions:

  1. Why is there no baptism doc found for him?
  2. What happens to him as a 3 yr old in the 1725 census (perhaps census is taken before Johannes' birth?)
  3. What happens to him as a 4 yrold in the 1726 census?
Sharon Doubell C
10/4/2021 at 12:48 AM

Whose profile?
Gerrit Willemsz (Nieuwoudt ?)
Birth: 17 December 1716
Paarl, Drakenstein, Caep de Goede Hoop, South Africa
Death: 1797 (80-81)
Paarl, Drakenstein, Caep de Goede Hoop, South Africa

J P Weyers
10/4/2021 at 12:51 AM

Sorry on his profile but relates to his father Isaac Nieuwoudt.

J P Weyers
10/4/2021 at 12:55 AM

But baptised 1717 father Willemsz clearly not Nieuwoudt
Sharon Doubell C
10/4/2021 at 1:03 AM

Possible explanations for sons in censuses (given that we know Jeremias and Johannes lived to adulthood):

  1. Gerrit Willemse is living with one of his Willemse adult siblings at 8 yrs old, then comes back into the fold in 1727 and takes his stepfather's surname.
  2. Gerrit Willemse either dies between 1724 and 1725, or is living with one of his Willemse adult siblings from 8 yrs old and disappears from all records; and Gerrit Nieuwoudt is born after 1726 (but this means he's unbaptised and marries at 13!)

No 1 remains by far the most likely.

Sharon Doubell C
10/4/2021 at 1:05 AM

Yes, but read the OP. Gert Thomas Willemse thinks there is another Gerrit born to Isaak Nieuwoudt.

Sharon Doubell C
10/4/2021 at 1:23 AM

This looks like the kind of puzzle that could be solved by doing DNA tests on the Nieuwoudt descent lines.

J P Weyers
10/4/2021 at 1:27 AM

Option I most likely

Gert Thomas Willemse
10/4/2021 at 2:11 AM

The link again. Apolgies, I seem to have left something out.
https://www.eggsa.org/sarecords/index.php/muster-rolls/muster-rolls...

On the possible explanation, Sharon, I think there is also a third option: 3. Gerrit Willemsz died sometime shortly after 1717. I think it is significant that his sister(?) Suzanna Willemse was clearly not adopted by Nieuwoudt and retained close ties with the earlier Willemsz (half)sisters.

The question also arises what became of Maria Cornelisz and the Willemsz children after the Izaak Pietersz debacle of 1713? It is possible that Suzanna was raised in the same fold but then why not Gerrit as well and why would Maria raise two of Gerrit SV's children by another woman?
Sharon Doubell C
10/4/2021 at 2:34 AM

RE 3rd option: That leaves the problem of 3 sons, not 2 in 1726.

Sharon Doubell C
10/4/2021 at 2:36 AM

RE Susanna Willemsz, b10

cf https://www.geni.com/discussions/166193?msg=1507899

Am I correct that we still don't have primary sources for her at all?

At the very least, no proof she was Anna Van Wijk's child?
Sharon Doubell C
10/4/2021 at 2:41 AM

Likely answer - Anna only raises her own children?

J P Weyers
10/4/2021 at 3:02 AM

Susanna Willemsz born 1715 or 1719 ?

The DVN b10 or b11 makes no sense here.

So far no sources for her parents .

J P Weyers
10/4/2021 at 3:17 AM

On Maria Cornelizs / van Bengale 's profile says she married Isaac Niewoudt
Another error.

Ball says -- he assumed Gerrit Niewoudt married in 1739 same as Gerrit Willemsz born 1717

J P Weyers
10/4/2021 at 4:45 AM

http://www.e-family.co.za/ffy/g7/p7264.htm

From www.stamouers.co.za and the informing article by N Upham http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/BUITENPOSTEN/2005-02/...

1678 . . .den selfden dito (27 October) Maria Cornelis Claessen en Catrina Mallebaar. NGK Kaapstad.

GERRIT WILLEMS in sy 20tiger jare, verlaat hy sy familie in Nederland en vertrek met 'n skip na die suidpunt van Afrika. In 1690 arriveer hy aan die Kaap en trou op 09 April 1691, in Kaapstad, met Maria CORNELISSE (sy word Maria van Bengale genoem in die lys van vryburgers van 1695). (Volgens inligting was Maria van Bengale 'n slavin van Jan van Riebeeck.) Haar ouers word gegee in (M Upham, "Claas van Malabar" in N Claassen, & GH Claassen, Die Claas(s)en afstammelinge in Suid-Afrika, Centurion, Outeurs, 2001) as Cornelis Claasen en Catharina van Malabar. Look also under Niewoudt for Maria.

She also married Isaak Niewoudt:

Maria had a son born from Willemse but when she married Niewoudt, he took on this surname and all his descendants:

Gerrit Niewoudt (Willemse) was baptised 2 May 1717, X 26 April 1739 Johanna Steenkamp

Helena baptised 9 Oct 1718, X 4 March 1736 Izaak Visagie

Jeremias baptised 17 Nov 1720

J P Weyers
10/4/2021 at 4:46 AM

So ? Maria van bengale or Anna van Wyk ?baptism Anna !!

J P Weyers
10/4/2021 at 4:55 AM

Susanna Willemsz, b10

names of 2 daughters do not point at

Johanna 'Anna' Nieuwoudt, b5 SM
Sharon Doubell C
10/4/2021 at 10:25 AM

Susanna's DVN is because she's supposedly Willemse's 10th child.

Gert Thomas Willemse
10/4/2021 at 11:05 PM

Quite correct Sharon, in all likelihood Anna van Wijk would raise only her own children. Crucially, the Cape Munster Rolls reveal that a Jannetjie van Wijk (as Anna was also known) was a single mother of one daughter in the period 1719 to 1723, when she supposedly married Izaac Nieuwoudt. I think we can safely assume that this daughter would probably be Helena Nieuwoudt (born 1718) rather than Suzanna Willemsz. This would then mean that the two sons of the couple reflected in the 1724 Munster Rolls presumably came with Isaac out of a previous relationship. Upham suggests that Izaac was a widower at the time of his marriage to Anna van Wijk, so this is quite plausable and together with Alida (botrn 1723) would complete the family of 2+2+2 reflected in the 1724 Munster Rolls.

It still leaves us with an unbaptised son, as only Jeremias has proof of baptism. Could this other son of Izaak be the elusive Gerrit Nieuwoudt?

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