John Elston - Duplicates shouldn't have been merged.

Started by Private User on Saturday, August 21, 2021
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Duplicates of this man's mother and her parents that got wrongly merged have created an illogical genealogical situation with him being married to his own mother.

https://www.geni.com/merge/view?revision_id=80325767320

Henry Warwick

Henry Warwick

Margaret Warwick

Margaret Warwick

Joanna Elston

Joan Ellis

His real wife is supposed to be Joanna Clapp (not Warwick). And I don't know what became of her, because I believe she was there prior to this merge.

It looks like Henry and Margaret Warwick became parents of their own daughter-in-law (somehow).

I think undo merge did it. Checking more links.

Did John Elston marry Joan Clapp? To me, it doesn’t look like it.

www.geni.com/media/proxy?media_id=6000000185828808822&size=large

Hi Erica Howton Your reference is to two paragraphs on p.30 of the text and to a John Eles (i.e. Ellis) in New England, with no proven blood relation to John Alston's family in Woodbridge, NJ.

But to concisely answer your question, no. I don't believe so. Not in Norfolk County, MA.

Be prepared if you decide to read this whole post: I learned so much here that I had to delete and rewrite it several times. I attempted to make it reasonably comprehensible and cohesive with some editing.

On Family Search I found Clapps and Ellises (no Elstons at all nor any Willises before 1811) very early in Norfolk Co., MA, including the record referenced in your cited text of a 1655 marriage between John Ellis and Joan Clapp.

https://archive.org/details/elstonfamilyinam00elst/page/38/mode/2up

https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/search?firstname=&middlenam...

https://archive.org/details/notablesouthernf03arms/page/n16/mode/1u...

They say three Elston brothers immigrated from England via Wales to New York and then the ones who eventually became my ancestors soon resettled near Woodbridge, NJ: 1William, Sr. [2William, Jr., 3David, 4John, 5Neaty (Elston) Denman].

Both William Jr. and sons David and William "III" Elston are listed in the DAR website. I believe William Sr. died sometime before the Declaration of Independence.

I've never seen any proven parentage for William Elston, Sr. (b. ca.1658; m. Elizabeth Cole) or his two brothers, of the so-called "Woodbridge lines".

The Warwick/ Warrick/ Warrock (not Waddock) family lived in Maine or elsewhere at the time, so I doubt that Joane Elston is their mother.

Their parents probably remained in either England or (most likely, according to Armstrong) Wales. That is where I would search for them.

I think in the absence of relevant factual documentation it is a mistake to conflate the surnames Ellis or Ellison with Alston, Elliston or Elstone, etc. The "T" makes the difference, because both family names were already well established as separate entities, since long before then. Spelling variations are common, but most often phonetic.

Ellis is a Welsh surname, Elston is not Welsh even though they may have lived there for awhile -- so Elston does not = Ellis. And the locations (Norfolk County, Massachusetts vs. other parts of the colony) don't match either.

Z. Armstrong wrote, "The Elstons are an old Welsh family in Cardeganshire, Wales. Their history dates' back to a remote period. The present representatives of the family there are wealthy mine owners. The first emigrants of the name coming to America were three brothers who came from Cardeganshire to New York in "about" 1760.

"It is thought that one of the three settled in New York, and spelled his name Alston instead of Elston, and from him is descended the very numerous and important family bearing that name to the present day.

"Another of the brothers, probably named Jo or Jonathan, left New York about the time of the Revolution, and joined General Greene’s army in the south. Some of his descendants are now living in the South."

"The third emigrant brother was named William Elston[, Sr.]. He settled in New Jersey at or near Elizabeth and reared a family there. One of his sons, also named William Elston[, Jr.], went south and finally settled in Smith County, Tennessee. He reared a family there, and his descendants are widely scattered."

I'm sure that if the Anglo-Saxon Elstons really were "an old Welsh family" it was likely only in a way similar to how my own family (for example) is "an old American family" among much older [i.e. Native or Indigenous] families: With all the constant migrations here and there, it often only takes a couple of generations of remaining in one place to become fully acclimated and feeling right at home.

Ellis supposedly originated in Normandy. Elston, being Anglo-Saxon, understandably isn't listed in Sir Richard Burton's reference book.

https://archive.org/details/normanpeopleand00unkngoog/page/235/mode... (mainly on p. 235)

Of the 10 Elston individuals listed on the DAR (including a David, John, and two Williams -- all of them served New Jersey. Many, many early New York settlers chose to resettle in New Jersey during that timeframe preceding the War (including others of my direct ancestors).

https://services.dar.org/public/dar_research/search_adb/default.cfm

Three of the ten, William Jr., William III (who died during the war), and David -- were from Elizabeth Town or nearby, in what was then Essex Co., NJ.

Woodbridge is only 10 miles distant from Elizabeth. William Elston, Jr. (b. before 1738 according to the DAR,. probably ca.1732) was reportedly born in Elizabeth, NJ, just a few miles from the Denman homestead in Westfield. He and Daniel Denman would have been close in age if the dates and connections are correct (which I'm beginning to doubt very much).

I need to take some time apart from this discussion just to analyze and iron out some problems that have become obvious in this Elston line between William Sr./Elizabeth Cole on down. I'll have to rest up first. Some areas don't look right and appear to be based on little or nothing more than popular internet hearsay, and would probably benefit from some diligent fact-checking. On the other hand I may be making a few false assumptions, so it's time for clarification.

William "Jr." married Phoebe Lines and had two more marriages after she died. Fernita Line, David Elston's wife, is Phoebe's sister. Phoebe and Fernita are correctly connected as sisters, but Phoebe's husband is an orphan which doesn't look right. David has a brother named William, so are they the same? I need to check.

The name of the wife of the youngest William ("III") who died young during the war, is unknown. However, their daughter Rhoda Elston married Matthias Denman (I guess older cousin of my 3rd g-grandfather Blake Denman, who later married Fernita Lines' grand-daughter, Neaty Elston. This Matthias Denman is also some sort of orphan.)

These are duplicates

Patience Kelley

Patience Kelley

Anyway, to wrap up this post, the Elston and Denman families were apparently acquainted in NJ since before the War, then sometime during or shortly after the War, David and his brother?, William, migrated to Tennessee and Kentucky and that's probably how they eventually became acquainted with Gov. John Sevier and his family if they hadn't already met. A lot of loyal friendships and family ties were formed as a result of mutual participation in the Revolutionary war.

(There are perhaps 15x more Ellises than Elstons on the DAR website. But we must be careful not to confuse the two surnames. And DAR also has a few Warricks, another Anglo-Saxon surname, although apparently unrelated to any, Ellises or Elstons. The earliest marriage records for any Warricks that I could find have them residing in either Virginia or Massachusetts and not associated with any Elstons or Ellises.)
_________________________________________________

In your cited source on page 33 the author asserts: Willm Elliston, 13, went to“Bormodes” in 1635. (“Result of ReI search among British Archives for Information relating to the Founders of New England,” S.G. Drake). This is also given in “New Eng. Hist. & Gen. Reg.,” Vol. 14, p.355 as “Willm Elliston 13 (Tricessimo die Septembris 1635, Aboard the Dorss*, John Flower Mr bound for ye j Bormodes),” and in “The Original Lists of Persons of Quality, Emigrants, 1600-1700” by J. C. Hotten. He or perhaps a son could have i been William (2) but this doesn’t seem probable despite the reference in “State Paper Office. Papers of Barbadoes” in “New Eng. Hist. & Gen. Reg.,” Vol. 8, P. 207: “Wm. Elson for N. Y., 20 March, 1678, ketch Beginning, Wm. Play.”

This is exciting, because William Elliston/Elston, age 13, immigrated on the EXACT SAME VOYAGE as my 8th g-grandfather, John Denman II, son of John I and Judith Stoughton (later known as the widow Smead).

Same ship, same captain, same dates, same port of departure, and destinations. After stopping in Bermuda, they continued on into Boston Harbor. Had they tried to book passage directly to Boston in 1635, the English military would have prevented them from leaving.

And from Boston to settle initially in Salem and/or Dorchester, Massachusetts !

Then just a few years later while in his late teens, around 1639 when his mother died, John Denman II joined up with a group of adventurous colonists bound for Long Island, which at the time was a wilderness, comparatively. But I don't find anything similar to Elston in the early lists of Long Island freeholders, etc.

https://archive.org/details/annalsofnewtowni00rike/page/430/mode/2u...

Here's William Elliston alongside John Denman on the passenger list. These are just internet copies, but pretty accurate for the purposes of this discussion:

http://sites.rootsweb.com/~bmuwgw/dorset.htm

https://www.packrat-pro.com/ships/dorset.htm

1635 is 125 years earlier than the "about 1760" reported by Z. Armstrong. But maybe she had a good reason for believe that was the date they arrived. However the DAR has our Elstons born in New Jersey before that date. So she may have been mistaken.

And I need to find my better quality copies of the ship logs, because I know that Mary Denman, Judith's only daughter, age 13 at the time, also arrived in 1635 Boston Harbor aboard the same ship ("Dorset") with her brother.

I already knew about Judith Smead taking at least one or two cross-Atlantic voyages apart from the "Dorset" that brought the two Denman children over from London, England in 1635. She, along with her brothers Thomas and Israel Stoughton, their wives and families, sailed at least once, with the Winthrop Fleet in 1629-30, as Mrs. Judith Smead accompanied by her husband, Mr. Smead of Coggeshall, Essex, England, and their son, William Smead.

I can't remember which ships in the Fleet I found them listed with, or whether the Smeads and Stoughtons all travelled on different ships. So I'll have to look for that again, too.

John and Mary in 1630 would have only been about 8 and 9 years old, and either were not listed on the manifest for some reason, or simply stayed behind in England for the next five years. Judith's brothers, Thomas and Israel, were merchants involved in moving cargo back and forth, and it seems that at least some of the Stoughton siblings were very comfortable and accustomed to sailing the Atlantic whenever necessary. I wouldn't be surprised if at least one of the Winthrop fleet or even the Dorset was owned or leased by one of these Stoughton gentlemen. In fact after many years of working in America, near the end of his life when very ill Judith's brother Israel sailed back to England to live out his remaining days.

But the point all this is that, Included with the Winthrop Fleet passengers and apparently on the same boat with the Smead family -- was one JOHN ELSTON, of SALEM !

Again this only links to an online internet copy, however I have seen every one of the published transcripts documenting these passengers lists. So I know that it is accurate and that they do exist. Just gotta locate them.

http://newenglandsettlers.blogspot.com/2015/11/original-settlers-an...

So this suggests that the Denman and Elston families were probably well-acquainted for many generations, long before Rhoda Elston married Matthias Denman in New Jersey, and later Neaty Elston married his younger cousin? (no good at calculating relationships in my head), my direct ancestor, Blake Denman, near Cherokee Mountain in northern Georgia.

I will have to fact-check Z. Armstrong's claim that the Elstons sailed directly to New York from Wales. There may be some truth to that, but I'd like to find out how much.

I must check around Long Island and Salem as well, for evidence of land-ownership, marriages, and so forth. I vaguely remember noticing the Elston/Elliston (perhaps with even more variations, e.g. Alston) name associated with the earliest American Denmans, but was unsure about how seriously it should be considered.

The reason I find this so interesting is because it helps reinforce the validity of a direct bloodline from post-Revolutionary War Blake Denman all the way back to pre-Revolutionary War John Denman II. That's really big, for me. I've been looking for corroboration, since there was the slimmest chance that my father's paternal lineage originated with later immigrants such as those recently uncovered in Perquimans County, North Carolina, bordering Virginia, and further west in the state of NC. Documentation gets shaky and scarce during the War years. All sorts of upheaval and misplaced, forgotten, or lost records, casting some doubt and feelings of uncertainty. And then again, there is a ton of documentation yet to be digitized, and/or discovered. So it is always non-stop searching for more documentation.

Athough unlikely, due to the lack of enough progeny and extended family from among those few early North Carolina Denman colonists that have turned up -- unfortunately I still don't know much about them, so can always use a little more reassurance. The large, constantly migrating families expanding from NJ southward toward Alabama and over the Appalachians into Tennesse moving steadily westward toward the Mississippi River and the Ozarks after the War become more challenging to track as the nation's official maps steadily kept pace with its exploding population.

So in conclusion, I have done a complete about-turn since beginning to formulate my original response many hours ago. At first I didn't think it possible that any ancestral Elstons could be found in the same or similar settings and circumstances with early Denman colonists. I was under the impression that they showed up much later, "about 1760". Yet even the DAR data proves they were here long before that date.

I still don't believe that the Ellises briefly mentioned in the text were genuine Elstons. I still doubt that very much.

But now I can say with a reasonable degree of confidence that the two passengers (13 year old William Elliston and John Elston, of Salem) sailing in the company of Denmans, Smeads, Stoughtons, and many other refugees from England on the same ships and passages, risking lives and fortunes in hopes of securing a happier future --

-- actually DID live in SALEM (not Medford or Norfolk County) Massachusetts, and possibly later in Long Island or parts of NY state before moving onward to New Jersey, and so on, travelling similar migration routes as their Denman friends and neighbors, perhaps attending the same churches, working and sharing harvests, hunting and fishing, trading goods and services, hosting one another for dinners, etc.

I now understand that the sight of their names on the same ship logs with my people was more than mere coincidence. It is as meaningful as so many other genealogical type information I have discovered over the years. I had prudently forgotten about it, let it go, put it out of my mind for awhile -- because there was nothing to do but wait for more information to turn up later. And now our time has come.

I don't know how I was able to find them again. Just lucky, I suppose. Engaging in this little discussion brought about some pleasant surprises, from my perspective; and was worth every hour spent attempting to formulate a proper answer for Erica's simple yes-or-no question. I had earlier noticed the "Joan Clapp" error with a tiny yet persistent shadow of disappointment, so was overjoyed to have this opportunity to air it out publicly, think it over, and offer some opinions.

Thanks for asking, Erica! Sorry for the long response. The most relevant part is in the second paragraph, in case you don't have time to read it all. The ongoing learning process and steady work in progress should help strengthen that little branch of our family tree.

You’ve made me very glad I posted the question. It didn’t even occur to me it was in your wheelhouse, and yet - look at the buckets of insight. So cool.

I’m kind of loving the idea they arrived first at Salem, because the dates seemed awfully early to be getting born at Woodbridge. My own lines to NJ though were spillover from New Netherland Colony, especially Newtown (now Elmhurst, Queens).

Had you seen the “Joan died at Staten Island” notation? Of course Staten Island > Woodbridge would have been easy peasy by boat. We tend to forget how important the waterways were.

What any of this would have to do with Medfield people doesn’t at all work for me. Medfield was a daughter town of Dedham, one of the most religious of all those Puritan places. De facto, if you could settle in / intermarry with Dutch Reformed Church people, you weren’t quite so Medfield-ish. And I think Elston’s first wife was Dutch.

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