Joachim Groger/Greger(s) from Pravonin

Thanks for starting the discussion, Lisa. The main point is that there are many records that mention persons named "Joachim Greger" or "Joachim Gröger" (one cannot put any weight on the difference in spelling, since it was probably determined by the preference of the scribe rather than by that of the bearer of the name) living in or near Pravonín from the 1790s to the 1840s, and we must be cautious about taking different records to refer to the same person. It is not desirable to attribute every record to a different person, but the records certainly contain details that make it impossible or at least implausible to attribute them to the same person. For the present we must operate on the assumption that there were three distinct persons of that name originating in Pravonín. The difficulty of identifying persons is especially difficult in the case of their wives, because the names "Esther," "Theresia," "Rosalia," "Rosaria," "Rosina," and "Rösl" seem to have been freely exchanged one for another and were bestowed far too widely for the convenience of researchers.

Correction to Lisa: "twins Salomon and Rifka (b. 1835)." They were not twins. I did not even know about Rebeka (and I had misread the year of Salomon's birth as 1833) until now. But Salomon (Salomon Gröger / Gut) was born in 1835, Rebeka (Rebeka / Rifka Gut) in 1838. The birth record of Salomon identifies Joachim Gröger as the father, and has "Grö" crossed out before "Gut" as his surname. The father is unmentioned in the birth record of Rebeka, but the fact that the child is born in house no. 84 (Joachim's address), together with the records of other children of Theresia of whom Joachim is identified as the father justifies the presumption that he is the father of Rebeka.

Yes, thanks for the correction. I think I must have hovered over the wrong name when I saw what appeared to be two identical birth dates...

I agree with your succinct summary of the situation above.

I have been sifting again through the available evidence regarding persons named Joachim Gröger in or from Pravonín. (A note on spelling: I do not believe that the alternation between such pairs of spellings as "Greger" and "Gröger," "Philipp" and "Filipp," "Joseph" and "Josef," etc., reflect anything more than the whims of individual scribes, so I shall use "Gröger" throughout.) I have done this by writing down, in the form of small trees on note cards, every family connection for which there was specific evidence, and then, by laying the cards alongside one another, considering how the various trees can be put together. The available sources are these:

1793 Čáslav census: cited as "C1793"
1799 Čáslav census: cited as "C1799"
Familiant record: cited as "Fam"
Kniha 642, Pravonín birth, marriage, and death records: "642:12:5" cites kniha 642, imamge 12, record no. 5.
Kniha 1686, Pravonín birth records: same format as kniha 642
Kniha 1276, Mladá Vožice birth records: same format as kniha 642

I find that all the component trees can be coherently assembled into just two big trees, though not without leaving certain puzzles. I will present the trees first, starting with the less problematic of the two, and then the puzzles.

Tree 1: the Salomon Gröger tree

C1793: the following Grögers live in Pravonín:
Salomon Gröger, Hausierer (no house number given)
wife Katharina
daughters Katharina and Ewa
unmarried second-born son Joachim
(Q: Does "Joachim, zweitgeborener" mean that Joachim is the second-born of two sons or just that he is the second-born *child*, presumably after Katharina? The lack of mention of another son indicates the latter.)

642:12:5 and 642:13:15:
Salomon Gröger and Rosalia Gröger produce two children:
Frantiska, b. 1797, Pravonín no. 3
Johanna, b. 1799, Pravonín no. 3

642:13:24:
Katharina bears an *unehelich* son:
Abraham, b. 1800, Pravonín no. 3

1686:80:48:
Eva/Ewa bears an *unehelich* son, Philipp

From the same plus other birth records in 642 and 1686:
Philipp has several *unehelich* children with Marie Friedmann, who are subsequently granted legal recognition as his children:
Josef, 1832
Jacob, 1835
Elisabeth, 1838
Joachim, 1841
Franziska, 1849

Tree 2: the Samuel Gröger tree

C1799: there is a Samuel Gröger in Pravonín (no mention of other family members or house number)

Fam (1): Samuel, Familiant, is married to Rosina

Fam (2): Joachim, Familiant, son of Samuel and Rosina, is married to Ester, born Freund

Fam (3): Samuel, Familiant, son of Joachim and Esther, is born in 1803; in 1826 he obtains legal permission to marry Theresie Gut

642:13:23: Joachim and wife Esther have a daughter, Rosaria, b. 1800 at Pravonín no. 5. This is presumably the same Joachim and Esther as in Fam (2).

642:14:32: "Gachÿn" and "Teresÿa" Gröger (thanks to Lisa K. for helping me to decipher the names) have a son, Samuel, b. 1803 at Pravonín no. 5. Again, presumably these are the same two people as Joachim and Esther in Fam (2).

Next comes a series of records of *unehelich* births to Esther Gut, sometimes called Theresia, in several but not all of which the father is identified as Joachim Gröger, the son of Samuel and Rosina. I will simply list the births, on the presumption that Joachim is the father throughout. Two births are in Běleč no. 37, the home of Esther's parents Salomon and Rosalia Gut, the rest in Pravonín no. 84, the home of Joachim Gröger. The records of births in Pravonín are in 642 and the records of births in Běleč are in 1276:
Joseph, b. 1830, Pravonín no. 84
Gabriel, b. 1832, Pravonín no. 84
Markus, b. 1831 Běleč no. 37
Salomon, b. 1835, Pravonín no. 84
Rebeka, b. 1838, Pravonín no. 84
Joachim, b. 1841, Pravonín no. 84
Theresia Rosalia, b. 1841, Běleč no. 37

642:39:10: death record of Joachim Gröger, d. 1841 at Pravonín no. 84, age 76 (b. 1770/71). The place of death is the basis for taking this to be the same Joachim Gröger as mentioned in previous records assembled in this tree.

Finally, an "odd duck" birth record (more about it below):
1236:15: Joachim and Veroninka Gut have a child, Josef, b. 1824 in Milevsko no. 52. There is no indication if the birth is *ehelich* or *unehelich*, but the child is recorded as "Joachim Greger," indicating *eheliche Geburt*.

Those are the components of the Samuel Gröger tree. The outstanding questions rasied by the two trees are the following:

1. Joachim is recorded as having two children with Esther, born Freund: Rosaria in 1800 and Samuel in 1803. These must be *ehelich* births, since the father is recorded and the child has his surname. But thirty years later (!), Joachim is apparently fathering children with another Esther, born Gut. These births are *unehelich*. Why would a Familiant beget children without an *Ehekonzens*?

2. Joachim is recorded as begetting an *ehelich* son named Joseph with Veronika Gut in Milevsko in 1824, but then an *unehelich* son named Joseph with Esther Gut in Pravonín in 1830. How can this be?

3. What happened to Joachim the son of Salomon and Katharina (tree 1)? Is it possible that he is the same person as Joachim the son of Samuel and Rosina, meaning that Salomon and Samuel are the same person and that Katharina and Rosina are the same person?

Before answering these questions, let me stress that we have compelling evidence that the Joachim who fathered *uneheliche* children with Esther Gut and the Joachim who was a Familiant and fathered *eheliche* children with Esther Freund are the same person: both are identified as the son of Samuel and Rosina Gröger. I say this partly to answer my own former doubts about this identity. It is clear *that* we are dealing with one and the same Joachim in these cases. The question is merely how this is possible.

Here is my conjectural explanation: Esther Freund died sometime before 1824. Joachim obtained legal permission to marry Veronika Gut, who bore him a son, Joseph. Joseph and Veronika both died. Joachim could not obtain legal permission to marry a third time. So he had a "garret marriage" (as I understand these things to be called) with Veronika's sister Esther and had seven children with her.

I find nothing compelling about this explanation: it is just a way of fitting the pieces together. The important point is merely that the pieces must fit together somehow: Joachim the father of the legitimate children Rosaria and Samuel is plainly the same person as Joachim the father of at least five of Esther Gut's seven children.

That he is also the same person as the Joachim who married Veronika Gut and had a son with her is less certain. I don't think we can dismiss the possibility that this is a different Joachim Gröger---perhaps the son of Salomon Gröger (C1793). That Joachim would have to be fairly old by 1824, but not necessarily any older than Joachim, the son of Samuel and Rosina.

To address my third question, whether it is possible that Samuel = Salomon, Katharina = Rosina, etc. I would say that this is indeed possible, as far as the available evidence goes, but that there is no good reason to embrace such a conclusion. It is unfortunate that we must in any case equate some persons who appear under different names (e.g., "Esther" and "Theresia"), and it is not unheard of for one and the same man to appear as both "Samuel" and "Salomon." But mere love of parsimony does not justify doing the ammount of violence to the records that must be done to carry through this identification.

I will sum up by stating how many Joachim Grögers I think we should recognize in distinct profiles:

(1) Joachim, son of Samuel and Rosina, 1770/71–1841; Familiant; lawful husband of Esther, born Freund; *ehelich* father of Rosaria (1800) and Samuel (1803); unlawful husband of Esther Gut; *unehelich* father of at least five, and probably all, of her seven children, born from 1830 to 1841.

(2) Joachim, husband of Veronika Gut and father of Joseph (1824). It seems more likely than not that this is the same person as Joachim (1), but the evidence is far from compelling, and I think we should leave the profiles open to the possibility that this is a different person.

(3) Joachim, son of Salomon and Katharina, probably born in the 1770s. Nothing further is known about him.

(4) Joachim, born *unehelich* to Philipp Gröger and Marie Friedmann in 1841, later granted *ehelich* status.

One question that I did not address in that long message is: What relation is there between Samuel Gröger and Salomon Greger ? Randy Schoenberg has them as brothers. This is certainly a plausible conjecture, but is there any evidence to support it?

Also, I neglected to mention that there is a death record for Samuel (642:33:33), stating that he died in Pravonín no. 5 (the same as the house in which his namesake grandson was born in 1803) at age 76 on 25 Feb 1805, from which we can conclude that he was born in 1729 or (more likely) 1728.

An unresolved puzzle that I neglected to mention: The Familiant record gives Pravonín no. 2 as the residence of the Joachim the son of Samuel; but no other record places him or any other Gröger at that address.

I came across this knotty problem in my tracking of Gut/Guths. My contribution here: the Joachim Groger father of Salomon Groger (and who had 5 children with Esther/Theresia Gut, Lisa's separate tree) - that Joachim is the son of Samuel and Rosina Marek - see https://vademecum.nacr.cz/vademecum/permalink?xid=a7fae315-ee63-46b...

It's nice to have a contribution from you, Deborah, though I think that information is already in the profile(s). I had to read through the entire preceding thread to remind myself of what this is all about, and I find it astonishing that I could at one time have had all the facts at my disposal. That done, I see what appear to be a pair of duplicate profiles of the Joachim whom you mention---son of Samuel and Rosina, husband of Esther, and father of seven all told, if the two profiles are indeed duplicates:

Joachim Gröger
Joachim Gröger

Private User, you are named as a manager of both profiles: is there is any reason *not* to merge the two profiles and the associated duplicates of Joachim's parents and his wife?

Sorry---it has been a long time since I was "up" on these things. I notice now a note in one of the profiles (this one: Joachim Gröger):

"Question: Is he the same as the Familiant Joachim Gröger in Pravonin (who had another wife Ester Freund and was having children already in 1800)? Age at death makes this seem plausible; however, the illegitimate births of children to Theresia Guth suggest that he (as a Familiant) wasn't the father."

So there were two Esters as well as two Joachims?

It's been a while since I looked at this, too. Other than the mystery of the uneheliche children, they sure seem identical. So I'm inclined to say that they are the same Joachim and Esther and merge them. Any objections?

Private User No objections from me.

I have merged the profiles of Joachim and those of each of his parents. The two Esthers, Freund and Guth, remain distinct.

Thanks, Private User !