Richard Lee of Coton Hall - Problematical Information in Overview

Dear Jacqueli: The evidence that the birth record from Shrewsbury St. Chad's does NOT pertain to the Coton Hall family can be found on the very image you waved around as "proof" that it *does*.

Take a good close look at the word following the father Richard Lee's name. Does it say "Gent."? It does not. It says "Sharman". I looked it up, and it's an obsolete occupational term for a worker-in-cloth, and some definitions added the velvet-cutting detail.

So I went digging deeper into the Shrewsbury St. Chad's parish records. What I found, I posted.

I have done nothing else except tattle.

I think you also need to go yell at Morgan Fourman and Alan Nicholls.

Re: Elizabeth Bendy, widow, nee Brooke: https://www.morganfourman.com/articles/elizabeth-bendy/

Re: additional Bendy-Lee connections: https://www.morganfourman.com/articles/william-bendy/
and https://www.morganfourman.com/articles/lancelot-lee/

Please note that these articles *are* sourced, and the sources appear to be primary documentation.

Baptismal, not birth record :-P

Personally I think Nicholls is chasing another wild hare, but that's neither here nor there.

Now - get to the brass tacks and show actually documented evidence to dis-spell and over ride the primary and historical publications that I have proven.

Thank you.

SOOOO - urls marked and underlined in blue DON'T MEAN ANYTHING, eh?

You know something? *YOU* have never provided proof positive that Richard Lee of Coton Hall pulled up stakes and moved clear across the country to Stratford Langethorne, Essex - you have merely claimed it *must be so* because Col Richard Lee of Virginia *later* lived there.

Listen, I'm *not* arguing that Col. Richard Lee was not the son of Richard Lee of Coton Hall. He probably was, but the record no longer exists and that's unfortunate.

Col. Richard Lee was not a cloth-worker's son, and not a weaver's son either. He was a gentleman's son, well born, well educated, with the kind of savoir-faire that recommended him to Governor Sir Francis Wyatt in the first place, and kept him at the upper levels of an admittedly rather rough-hewn colonnial society.

The only PROBMATIC issue with Richardus Lee and Elizabeth Bendy being the true parents of Col Richard Lee Colonel Richard "the Immigrant" Lee is that admission that this is the true lineage of Col Richard Lee would nullify all the Y-DNA Project and Y-DNA studies that have disclaimed many Lee of Virginia descendants -WRONGFULLY - and everyone should also note that prior to Thorndales bogus of attaching John Leyes and Jane Hancock with fake sources - it was acceptable by the Lee Society and Edmund Jennings Lee - see specifically in his book 'Lee of Virginia' that indeed Richardus Lee and Elizabeth Bendy were his parents and he WAS a decendant of the Lees of Shropshire.

There are direct descendant males of the UK Lees that more than match the USA Lee decendants today - as well as the other ancestrial and descending surnames associated with our LOV lines.

And GEDMatch DNA Kits are accessible for all the public to view and verify. BTW - unlike the Lee DNA Projects that have wrongfully detached Lee lines.

We have nothing to hide unlike them.

And you state records from Parish transcripts but have not posted anything relevant or factual ...

I might add.

Wills ARE legal and binding and establish the Parent/Child connection.

Clear as day ...

Welll, YOU insist on posting on two threads at once, so it's hardly fair to complain on *one* thread about something that was actually posted on *the other* thread. How about you pick one thread and stick to it?

I can copypaste too:

1617] St. Chad's. 3

1617, May 15. Richard, s. of Richard Lee, sharman ... c.
https://www.melocki.org.uk/salop/StChadShrewsburyPart1.html

There it is in black and white - "sharman". (You said it wasn't there, but it *is*.)

Lots of "sharman"s in the parish register, there must have been a thriving cloth trade in Shrewsbury.

=================================================================

Wills are very good for establishing connections between the will-maker and his/her *children*.

They are *NOT* very good for establishing connections between the will-maker and his/her *parents*, unless the parent(s) is/are still living and the will-maker wishes to leave them something. This is *not* the usual situation, however.

==================================================================

As for GEDMatch, that's *autosomal* DNA, which really has nothing to do with either Y-DNA or mt-DNA

Uh-huh. You are taking someone else's say-so as gospel, when the someone else provide no proof either. No documentation, just a parenthetical comment that *may or may not* be a Wild Mass Guess.

As you keep telling me, *that's not good enough*.

Lee of Virginia, 1642-1892 : biographical and genealogical sketches of the descendants of Col. Richard Lee. With brief notices of the related families...
by Lee, Edmund Jennings, 1853-

EJLee's argument for Col Richard Lee descendant of Coton Hall and son of Richardus Lee:
Pages 61, 63, 77, 79, 81, 85, 87, 89, 91, 95, 109 ... to name a few.

https://archive.org/details/leeofvirginia16400inleee/page/135/mode/...

"Uh-huh. You are taking someone else's say-so as gospel, when the someone else provide no proof either. No documentation, just a parenthetical comment that *may or may not* be a Wild Mass Guess.

As you keep telling me, *that's not good enough*.'

Proven Wills Maven.

Source: Probate of Will of Richardus Lee:

UK, Probate Records 1269-1975.Name Lee, Richard; Death 1621; Vital Shropshire, England; First name(s) Richard; Last name Lee; Year 1621; Probate year 1621; Inventory year 1620; Parish Shrewsbury; County Shropshire; Country England; Series description Registered wills and original wills, administrations and inventories, 1494-1860, and, act books, 1532-1638 for Diocese of Lichfield Episcopal Consistory Court; Piece description Original wills, administrations, inventories; Piece surname range L; Piece year range 1621-1623; Record set Staffordshire, Dioceses Of Lichfield And Coventry Wills And Probate 1521-1860; Category Birth, Marriage & Death (Parish Registers); Subcategory Wills & probate; Collections from England, United Kingdom

"I can copypaste too:"

I find it highly offensive that you make light of my disabilities.

Many may consider that inappropriate.

"Wills are very good for establishing connections between the will-maker and his/her *children*.

They are *NOT* very good for establishing connections between the will-maker and his/her *parents*, unless the parent(s) is/are still living and the will-maker wishes to leave them something. This is *not* the usual situation, however."

That is an entirely false statement.

Y-DNA (Y chromosome only) > father > son >son > son....

mtDNA (mitochondrial from X chromosome) > mother > daughter > daughter > daughter....

autosomal DNA - all chromosomes, random from ALL ancestors, male and female; garbles down to "background noise" beyond about 7-8 generations.

"GEDmatch is an online service to compare autosomal DNA data files from different testing companies." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GEDmatch

More about GEDmatch: https://smithplanet.com/stuff/gedmatch.htm

Since you despise transcripts and deny the validity of AN OFFICIAL GENEALOGICAL RESEARCH SITE, I suggest you take a *very* close look at YOUR OWN IMAGE FROM THE ACTUAL PARISH REGISTER of Shrewsbury St. Chads: https://img1.wsimg.com/isteam/ip/fe402818-3b17-4686-aaae-15fe2c19d4...

Look VERY VERY CLOSELY at the 9th word in the line. It's a real word. It's a rather crabbed and antique hand, but it MOST EMPHATICALLY DOES NOT SAY "Gent."

Again Maven you say things I never have said to you. And one can learn. ANd what I said was true. Please leave me be now. Thank you in advance.

"Y-DNA (Y chromosome only) > father > son >son > son....

mtDNA (mitochondrial from X chromosome) > mother > daughter > daughter > daughter....

autosomal DNA - all chromosomes, random from ALL ancestors, male and female; garbles down to "background noise" beyond about 7-8 generations."

In regards to Lee Y-DNA projects and projections:

Generation 1 male Y-DNA Haplogroup can only match generation 2, 3, 4 generational ascending ancestors ONLY if Y-DNA samples of male ascending ancestors have given Y-DNA sample…

Since Y-DNA sample for Gen RE Lee had been obtained so with the paper trail documented to 5 generation ancestors pertaining to subsequent to the documented descending ancestors that have no sample of Y-DNA but Y-DNA Haplogroup is consistent to that same Generation 1 male Y-DNA sample can prove a genetic relationship …

But again – if there are NO Y-DNA SAMPLES for ancestors of Generations 5 Gen RE Lee ancestor males generation 6, 7, 8 to Col Richard Lee and beyond, there can be NO Y-DNA Haplogroup assigned to verify or match anyone as this is not how Y-DNA works … it cannot absolutely fly through time and attach itself to an ancestor UNLESS THERE IS A Y-DNA SAMPLE FROM THAT GENERATION ANCESTOR
.
It is a ridiculous and outright mis-leading statement to indicate otherwise and what many are trying to lead the public to believe that this can be so.

It is scientifically and GENETICALLY IMPOSSIBLE.

About Autosomal DNA - and GEDMatch:

I have found Autosomal DNA quite accurate in confirming genetic relationship multi-generations up to generation 8 even without ascending DNA samples for upper generations.
I have help many find parental relationships and family members that they never knew, and without documentation- both maternal and paternal sides – using just generation 1 Autosomal DNA.

Anyone who has used AU DNA to confirm ancestral relationships - multi-generational – will agree I am sure – and with great accuracy.

Unlike Y-DNA which is full of inaccuracies because opinion, interpretation and mis-leading statements in Y-DNA studies have had confusing results.

Autosomal DNA in genealogy has been quite accurate and exact – to say otherwise is a lie.
Any of those who have found biological parents and family can vouch this fact.

As I said - I have had the pleasure to assist MANY in finding their parent(s), family that they never known - which has been a rewarding experience for me as it usually has brung such joy and closure to those who needed it the most.

As I said before:

The only PROBMATIC issue with Richardus Lee and Elizabeth Bendy being the true parents of Col Richard Lee Colonel Richard "the Immigrant" Lee is that admission that this is the true lineage of Col Richard Lee would nullify all the Y-DNA Project and Y-DNA studies that have disclaimed many Lee of Virginia descendants -WRONGFULLY - and everyone should also note that prior to Thorndales bogus of attaching John Leyes and Jane Hancock with fake sources - it was acceptable by the Lee Society and Edmund Jennings Lee - see specifically in his book 'Lee of Virginia' that indeed Richardus Lee and Elizabeth Bendy were his parents and he WAS a decendant of the Lees of Shropshire. Regardless of the argument contrary - I have 2 copies here and EJ Lee was very much in favor of Col Richard Lee being a descendnt of the SHropshire Coton Hall Lees - and that family is well documented - contrary to the argument - and it kind of narrows it down to Richardus, as it wasn't the other bros /sons of John Lee of Coton Hall.

There are direct descendant males of the UK Lees that more than match the USA Lee decendants today - as well as the other ancestral and descending surnames associated with our LOV lines.

Anyway - Y-DNA cannot attach itself to non-Y-DNA tested ascending generations and individuals and cannot fly magically through time and attach itself to non-tested male ancestors as others have suggested - so scientifically a Y-DNA Haplogroup cannot be assigned to any of these non-Y-DNA tested ascending ancestors either - to claim such is false and impossible,

That is not just my opinion but fact, truth and science.

Yes - I am finding as many of us are Autosomal DNA accurate and very useful in genealogy - especially with the documented Lee LOV lines that have been told they are not related to Col Richard Lee and Anne Constable. :)

There are hundreds if not thousands of us Lee cousins that can confirm this - regardless of others opinions about us.

And I am proud of all of my 'mixed-line' ancestors and cousins. I think the more the merrier. :)

"All this, from someone who once claimed not to be very knowledgeable about DNA...." Maven -

My mentor and friend Prof James H L Lawler was considered an EXPERT in DNA and many other things as he taught me as much as he could. I will always value that experience and opportunity to learn from the best.

Thank you.

Tagging profiles:
Richard Lee of Coton Hall
Colonel Richard "the Immigrant" Lee

For the research associated to them:
https://leesofvirginia.org/Col_Richard_Lee.html

As it seems to have been removed from these profiles as it is my original research and on history timestamp my contributions and credits have been removed. The current contents shows another version of my research - rewritten without any reference to my hard work.

and DNA references:
https://leesofvirginia.org/Lee_DNA_Project_Page.html

Any complaint about self-promoting - I think it prudent to promote the research as it is relevant and I did the research. And it pertains to the topics. It only is fair and right as I cannot change that I did the work.

Thank you.

Discussion on my argument for Ricardus Lee of Coton as parent of Col Richard Lee as presented on Geni to confirm it as my contribution:

Richard Lee of Coton Hall - Inconsistancies "Discussion"
https://www.geni.com/discussions/193270?authenticity_token=XZoVQC5P...

Thank you,
Jacqueli Finley

Maven -
"Dear Jacqueli: The evidence that the birth record from Shrewsbury St. Chad's does NOT pertain to the Coton Hall family can be found on the very image you waved around as "proof" that it *does*.

Take a good close look at the word following the father Richard Lee's name. Does it say "Gent."? It does not. It says "Sharman". I looked it up, and it's an obsolete occupational term for a worker-in-cloth, and some definitions added the velvet-cutting detail.

So I went digging deeper into the Shrewsbury St. Chad's parish records. What I found, I posted.

I have done nothing else except tattle."

SO - in response I took the liberty of adding primary sources - and a close-up of 1617 baptismal record in question:

It clearly states: RICHARD LEE FATHER OF SON RICHARD LEE - there is no "Sharman" after his father.

Furthermore: Here are the Parish Record Transcripts
Richardus Lee; Present at baptism of Richard Lee:; County Shropshire; Register type Composite; Register date range 1616-1638; Archive reference P253/A/1/1; Page 2; Record set Shropshire Baptisms; Category Birth, Marriage & Death (Parish Registers); Subcategory Parish Baptisms; Collections from United Kingdom, England; (source image attached)

and

Richard (Richardus) Lee listed as present (Father) at baptism of Col. Richard Lee; County Shropshire Register type Composite Register date range 1616-1638 Archive reference P253/A/1/1 Page 2 Record set Shropshire Baptisms Category Birth, Marriage & Death (Parish Registers) Subcategory Parish Baptisms Collections from United Kingdom, England Note:source image attached - Primary Source:; First name(s) Richard; Last name Lee; Birth year -; Baptism year 1617; Baptism date 15 May 1617; Denomination Anglican; Place Shrewsbury, St Chad's; Father's first name(s) Richard; Mother's first name(s) -; Mother's last name -; Residence -; County Shropshire; Register type Composite; Register date range 1616-1638; Archive reference P253/A/1/1; Page 2; Record set Shropshire Baptisms; Category Birth, Marriage & Death (Parish Registers); Subcategory Parish Baptisms; Collections from United Kingdom, England

Now after the wording "son Richard Lee" there is writing - not "Sharman" unless you are suggesting that Col Richard Lee was born with shears in hand.

Nice try.

I also added these primary and secondary sources pertaining to the situation:

https://www.geni.com/documents/followed_by/6000000001210330059

As for me - I am not a genetic specialist or DNA expert, although I learned the basics from one, I just want to help clear up the confusion and misrepresentations of what Y-DNA and Autosomal DNA can and cannot do. In my opinion one has been over-rated (Y-DNA) and one under-rated (Autosomal) so I am only trying to clarify in the simplilest "layman' terms to help things along.

I am not perfect - I make mistakes and if proven wrong make admission, adjustments, apoligies, then move on ...

I AM a genealogist though, one who loves history and wishes to preserve it for all generation - today's and tomorrow's - regardless of race, color, creed, religion, politics, or surname ...
so I fight hard for what is true and correct.

Thank you for the patience with me in advance.
Jacqueli

RE: https://www.melocki.org.uk/MelockiContact.html - Maven's "Source" for Richard Lee 'Sharman" Baptismal Record -

From the 'source' site:

Contact Details
I welcome corrections to errors in any of the data for which I'm responsible and mistakes I've made in putting it together. And, of course, I welcome contributions from readers who have data to offer me.

However, much as I would enjoy doing so, I don't have the time to engage in email exchanges about users' own research. With the qualification that I don't promise to answer all (or even many) emails, if you've got a correction to provide, my email address is: melvynlockie@btinternet.com
Return to top of page

URL of this page: http://www.melocki.org.uk/MelockiContact.html
Copyright notice:
All pages at http://www.melocki.org.uk
are Copyright Mel Lockie 2011.
All rights reserved.
For a detailed copyright policy see: Conditions of Use.

[Last updated 16 Oct 2015 - 14:16 by Mel Lockie]

So PROBABLY WHY Maven made the statement:

"Dear Jacqueli: The evidence that the birth record from Shrewsbury St. Chad's does NOT pertain to the Coton Hall family can be found on the very image you waved around as "proof" that it *does*.

Take a good close look at the word following the father Richard Lee's name. Does it say "Gent."? It does not. It says "Sharman". I looked it up, and it's an obsolete occupational term for a worker-in-cloth, and some definitions added the velvet-cutting detail.

So I went digging deeper into the Shrewsbury St. Chad's parish records. What I found, I posted.

I have done nothing else except tattle.

I think you also need to go yell at Morgan Fourman and Alan Nicholls.

Maven B. Helms PRO
8/13/2021 at 8:19 PM
Report
Re: Elizabeth Bendy, widow, nee Brooke: https://www.morganfourman.com/articles/elizabeth-bendy/

Re: additional Bendy-Lee connections: https://www.morganfourman.com/articles/william-bendy/
and https://www.morganfourman.com/articles/lancelot-lee/

Please note that these articles *are* sourced, and the sources appear to be primary documentation."
https://www.geni.com/discussions/235584?msg=1495054&page=1

Unless a "source' is thoroughly vetted and original primary or secondary publishing with primary citations is not a reliable source BTW. Just going over and vetting properly so I am correct in confirming not a source to dispell a UK Parish record as was stated by Maven - thank you.

https://ukbaptisms.org/baptisms.htm

"Baptism and Birth Records in the UK
Baptism Records
A baptism record is a any type of record or certificate that states the date and place an individual was baptised into a church. These records are available from 1538 onwards, and are recorded in Parish Registers. They are an invaluable resource for researching your family tree because the census and official records of birth, marriage and death do not go back further than 1837.
Baptism Records before 1813
Until 1813, the amount of information given is very basic. This included:
Child's name
Father's name
Church/Parish where baptised
Date
It was very uncommon for the mother to be mentioned, as this was considered to be unimportant..."

Note by Jacqueli:
It was NOT customary or Parish practise to list parent 'trade' or status on Baptismal Records.