Kisekwi-Waskwi “Blue Sky” Cornstalk - Request to Curators: Please Remove Erroneous Material Provided Sarah Burns Atkins and any Links to Her Blog Contained on this Locked Profile

Yak-yak isn't proof of anything. Hard primary documentation, please.

Hi, Erica,

Carlyle Hinshaw is my cousin.

He is a Federally enrolled tribal member who created the first Bluejacket website for the tribe. You have that link posted in the reference section of the Bluesky profile page. It has remained there for years. That link DOES document that Bluesky was the daughter of Chief Cornstalk.

Carlyle is a preeminent and well-respected genetic genealogist. He is the administrator of several large DNA projects on FTDNA. He helped to run and manage the DNA study that proved that Bluejacket was a Shawnee Indian and not a white man. He is an expert on the Shawnee tribe.

As for my blog, what is it that you would like to post on Geni? All you need to do ask for permission :) and post links to the appropriate pages of my blog. Just let me know what portions you are interested in posting and I'm happy to work it out with you.

Oh, Erica, I neglected to reply to your comment above:

"Is there a DNA study comparing Bluesky descendants with other Cornstalk (siblings8 descendants?"

Yes, there is.

You will find chromosome mapping as well as matching DNA chromosome segment totals, including the X chromosome, on The Proof page of my blog. Included in the comparison are three direct-line female line descendants of Bluesky Cornstalk.

The Silverheels descendants who are listed are Federally enrolled tribal members who are direct-line descendants of Chief Silverheels (brother of Cornstalk) as compared with my family members who are direct-line descendants of Bluesky Cornstalk, and in some of the comparisons also with Peter Cornstalk (son of Chief Cornstalk).

It turns out also that the Bluejackets and Tecumseh's are related to my family. These lines too have been vetted by comparisons of family trees, DNA (including X chromosome) and chromosome mapping with my Federally enrolled cousins who are direct-line descendants of Chief Bluejacket and Tecumseh.. I have included them in the comparisons on The Proof page as well.

Maven B. Helms....DNA DOESN'T lie.

Same old same old walls of text obscuring the fundamental question: "did Bluesky daughter of Cornstalk really exist?"

To answer this, you *must* show that somebody, at some time *during* their lifetime, wrote down something official that explicitly says something like "Cornstalk's daughter Bluesky...."

Until you have this, you have nothing.

One factor that's easily blurred over in discussions of DNA, specifically autosomal DNA, is that descendants of the same populations do tend to show autosomal similarities even when they are *not* directly related. (We're seeing a lot of that in the Savoie discussions, totally beclouding the issue of Francois Savoie's relationship, if any, to Tommaso di Savoia di Carignano. Both of them have been proved to exist; the relationship has not.)

Unless you are testing 100% pureblood Native descendants (an extremely and increasingly rare phenomenon), you cannot rule out the possibility that the autosomal similarities are from the *settler* population. Also, the smaller the segments ("centimorgans" in autosomal terminology), the less they show anything useful. There is a reason why *REPUTABLE* genetic genealogists recommend not looking too hard at anything smaller than 7 centimorgans - and you were working down to and below 3.

At *that* level, any results are likely to be about as informative as the statistic that someone has "3% Neanderthal DNA" (fairly common in persons of European ancestry, actually). That does not and cannot tell you *which* Neanderthal(s), or where, or when.

Hmmm...sorry you're not understanding Erica. I laid the DNA on the proof page out as it is displayed from the GEDmatch result. Perhaps watching a few videos on youTube regarding the Matching Segment Search feature will help clear that up for you :).

I would be happy to consult Jaqui Finley; however I hate to waste her time or my time at the moment. One of my cousins is receiving messages from Mavin making unsubstantiated and derogatory comments about Jacqui. I believe Jaqui's credentials to be outstanding. Mavin's going out of her way to trash another member's reputation, not outstanding. Sad...

The Hanks mtDNA study still rankles with Jacqueli, because it includes this explicit statement:

15. Ann “Nanny” Lee, c. 1742–
post 1793, whose father, William
Lee, was the son of William and
Dorothy (Taylor) Lee, this last
a daughter of Elizabeth (_____)
Taylor. These Lees were apparently
not related to the Lees of Stratford
Hall, forebears of Declaration of
Independence signers Richard
Henry and Francis Lightfoot Lee,
of Confederate General Robert
E. Lee....

She had spent a great deal of time and effort constructing a tree that included William Lee m. Dorothy Taylor as a son of William "Constable" Lee, son of Col. Richard Lee and Anne Constable. But unfortunately Y-DNA evidence said explicitly that William Lee m. Dorothy Taylor was *not*, and could never have been, any male-line relationship to Col. Richard Lee. She took it very hard, especially when the Hanks line was moved over to "William Lee of Ulster & Richmond" and away from her constructed descent tree.

It's never nice when a beautiful theory is dashed on the rocks of cold hard fact.

Maven,

I really wish you would take the time to read what I write. Your comments are becoming tiresome and making me repeat myself, a lot of unnecessary make-work; or perhaps that is your motive.

I wrote: "Carlyle Hinshaw.is my cousin. He is a Federally enrolled tribal member who created the first Bluejacket website for the tribe. ***You have that link posted in the reference section of the Bluesky profile page. It has remained there for years".

DOCUMENTATION: ***That website DOES document that Bluesky was the daughter of Chief Cornstalk. Please see "From the Horses Mouth," second paragraph...

"Schutz notes that Cornstalk’s ‘siblings were Nonhelema ( "grenadier Squaw"; Catherine), Silverheels, and Nimwha. Some say his father was Paxinosa, ‘Hard Striker’ (not the father of Tecumseh as some think in error, but a well-known Pennsylvania Shawnee chief). Some of his children that have been mentioned are Oceano, Elinipso (Elinipisco, Elinispisco Nipseko), Aracroma (The Aracroma legend, married Boiling Baker), Greenbrier (name from the Greenbrier area of the Kanawha River?), ***BLUESKY***, Wynepuechiska (Peter), Wissecapoway, Piaserka (The Wolf). Other names mentioned are Mary, Elizabeth, Esther, Peter, Nern-Pe-Nes-Quah. Keigh-taugh-quah. Elizabeth See was a white captive Cornstalk married prior to her repatriation. Cornstalk is said to have been born in western Pennsylvania at least by 1720, but some say 1708 or 1710, and moved with his family when he was about 10 to Ohio." (Emphasis added.)

http://www.shawnee-bluejacket.com/chiefs.html

As for DNA, you must think we don't know what we're talking about...or it is you that does not know what YOU are talking about. That's the entire purpose of chromosome mapping...to verify or rule out a direct relationship, especially the X chromosome. This has nothing to do with setter matches...my enrolled family and I ruled that out by vetting our family trees. The chromosomes would not line up the way that they have if we were not related. The matches would not be as large as they are if we were not related.

I recommend doing a little homework...time more well spent rather than harassing my family.

Mavin, please stick to Bluesky and quit trying to damage the reputation of another member. It is not very becoming.

"Everyone knows" doesn't cut the mustard. Is it written down? If so, where? When? By whom? Is there supporting documentation, or just an "oral history" report?

"Everyone knows" that Lt. Edward Waters married "Lady Grace O'Neil" - except that he didn't. She was just plain Grace Neale of Northamptonshire, from the local squirearchy, and nothing Irish about her. The legend grew up because embarrassed descendants wanted her to be more glamorous than she was.

No *respectable* researcher would have their reputation damaged by being wrong, as witness the public crow-eating from Christopher C. Child, author of the Hanks article. He had chosen between two plausible options, the mtDNA evidence showed he had picked the wrong one, and he admitted it and followed where the new evidence led.

He didn't throw up Walls Of Text defending his original position. He didn't cast doubt on the validity of DNA research. He didn't dig in and fiercely defend his original choice while savagely attacking anybody and everybody who agreed with the new findings.

He just said, "Oops, I was wrong", explained why his choice had seemed reasonable at the time, and then put it behind him and explained the new results.

"'Everyone knows' doesn't cut the mustard. Is it written down? If so, where? When? By whom? Is there supporting documentation, or just an "oral history" report?"

AGAIN, Mavin...

Maven,

I really wish you would take the time to read what I write. Your comments are becoming tiresome and making me repeat myself, a lot of unnecessary make-work; or perhaps that is your motive.

I wrote: "Carlyle Hinshaw.is my cousin. He is a Federally enrolled tribal member who created the first Bluejacket website for the tribe. ***You have that link posted in the reference section of the Bluesky profile page. It has remained there for years".

DOCUMENTATION: ***That website DOES document that Bluesky was the daughter of Chief Cornstalk. Please see "From the Horses Mouth," second paragraph...

"Schutz notes that Cornstalk’s ‘siblings were Nonhelema ( "grenadier Squaw"; Catherine), Silverheels, and Nimwha. Some say his father was Paxinosa, ‘Hard Striker’ (not the father of Tecumseh as some think in error, but a well-known Pennsylvania Shawnee chief). Some of his children that have been mentioned are Oceano, Elinipso (Elinipisco, Elinispisco Nipseko), Aracroma (The Aracroma legend, married Boiling Baker), Greenbrier (name from the Greenbrier area of the Kanawha River?), ***BLUESKY***, Wynepuechiska (Peter), Wissecapoway, Piaserka (The Wolf). Other names mentioned are Mary, Elizabeth, Esther, Peter, Nern-Pe-Nes-Quah. Keigh-taugh-quah. Elizabeth See was a white captive Cornstalk married prior to her repatriation. Cornstalk is said to have been born in western Pennsylvania at least by 1720, but some say 1708 or 1710, and moved with his family when he was about 10 to Ohio." (Emphasis added.)

http://www.shawnee-bluejacket.com/chiefs.html

Hi Erica.

This is what Carlyle wrote on the website. Hope that helps.

Contributor: Noel Schutz, National Chi Nan University, Puli, Tawan.

Schutz, a longtime worker in Shawnee linguistics, culture and history.

That's Jacqueli's constructed tree. There are a couple of problems with it:

1) To date no hard evidence has been found that "Captain William Lee, Esq." married anyone or had any offspring at all: no marriage records, birth/baptismal certificates, mentions in charters or land records or wills - in fact Captain William Lee tried to pass his estate to Mrs. Mary Heath, whose relationship to him is unclear and completely undocumented, and why would he do that if he had sons? (Even if they were itty-bitty babies, he could have put in something about "in trust for..." - but he didn't.)

2) Y-DNA studies have shown that the "Jehu" Lees (also known as the Abner Lees - apparently Jehu's descendants tested first) *may possibly* be very distant cousins to the Lees of Stratford Hall (and Blenheim and Leesylvania and Ditchley and Cobb's Hall and so forth) - but they *are not* direct descendants. The genetic distance is just too great. To find a common ancestor, you would have to be able to track both lines back to, oh, somewhere within a very loud shout of the days of Bad King John.

As for Alice Felton, *she* married a William LeA, of Chippoakes, antecedents unknown, descendants unknown, who was dealing in Surry County land what time Capt. William LeE was still in the schoolroom (1660s). It is not known whether there was a daughter Alice who could square this circle.

You just don't get it. Say-so on websites IS NOT EVIDENCE. At best it's a clue where to start looking *for* evidence, and at worst it's a wild goose chase.

Do we have a written record, *any* kind of written record, of a "Bluesky" who was, or was said to be, the daughter of Cornstalk, doing anything at all?

How about that oral report of her going on a peace mission to "General Lewis"? Is *that* written down anywhere (seems like it ought to be)?

A lot of what we know about Pocahontas comes from a nosy-parker named George Percy, the absolute junior son of the Percys of Northumberland, who spent a few years in Virgina observing and collecting anecdotes, and then went home to England to write them up and (try to) get them published.

Did any nosy-parkers take an interest in this Bluesky? (Could we be so lucky?)