Ternois di Friuli - Sources?

Started by Sharon Doubell on Saturday, March 20, 2021
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What Sources place NN - the wife of Gebhard, count of the Lahngau as a daughter of Unruoch, marquis & duke of Friuli?

*http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/FRANKISH%20NOBILITY.htm#_Toc371156058

[Unruoch, marquis & duke of Friuli UNRUOCH], son of --- (-13 Nov before 853). A list of Saxons in Westphalia dated Jan/Feb 802 records that "Adalgaudum filium Suigaut habuit Unrocus comis", presumably indicating that the last named had responsibility for the allegiance sworn to the emperor by the first-named[604]. "Comiti Hadalhardus, Fulradus, Unrocus seu Hrocculfus" are named as imperial missi in a document of Emperor Charlemagne dated 806[605]. Einhard names "Unruochus comes" as one of the 15 witnesses of the testament of Emperor Charlemagne dated 811[606]. Einhard's Annales record "Unrochus comes" as one of the signatories of peace with the Vikings in 811[607]. Comte en Ternois 839. "Unrici comitis" signed a charter dated 20 Jun 839 issued by "Folquinus…Morinorum episcopus"[608]. "Undrici comitis" signed a charter dated 29 Jun 839 issued by "Hugo abbas…Sithiensis"[609]. Monk at St Bertin[610]. m [Engeltrude of Paris ENGELTRUDE], daughter of ---. The primary source which names Engeltrude as wife of Unruoch and mother of his children has not yet been identified. Unruoch & his wife had three children:

a) [Berenger, duke of Septimania BERENGER] ([790/95]-killed in battle [836/37]). The original manuscript of Thegan’s Vita Hludowici Imperatoris names "Beringarii, Hunroci quondam comitis filii"[611]. Thegan's Vita Hludowici Imperatoris names "…Berengarium sapientem, propinquum suum" as missus of Emperor Louis[612]. The precise family relationship between Berengar and Emperor Louis I to which this refers is not known. It is possible that it refers to the marriage, which took place shortly before the events recorded in this passage in the Vita, between Berengar's younger brother Eberhard and the emperor's daughter Gisela, although this is remote. No indication has yet been found of any possible Carolingian ancestry of either of Berengar's parents. Berengar's birth date is estimated on the assumption that he was adult when he was recorded as count in 819, but also bearing in mind the estimated birth date range of his younger brother Eberhard. Comte de Toulouse 819. Einhard's Annales name "Berengario Tolosæ et Warino Arverni comite" as fighting "Lupus Centulli Wasco" in 819[613]. The Vita Hludowici Imperatoris records the rebellion of "Wasco, Lupus Centulli cognomento" and fighting "Werinum Arvernorum comitem et Berengarium Tholosanum"[614]. Duke of Septimania. "Ragnarius episcopus et Berengarius comes" are named as imperial missi in "sex…comitatus…Remis, Catolonis, Suessionis, Silvanectis, Belvacus et Laudunum…[et] quatuor…episcopatus …Noviomacensem, Ambianensem, Tervanensem et Camaracensem" in documents of Emperor Louis dated May 825 and 827[615]. Emperor Louis I granted "comitatum Brivatensem" to "fideli nostro Berengario…comiti" by charter dated 825[616]. “Berengarius...chomis” donated property to “abbate...Teuderedo” at the monastery of Alaon, as his predecessor “Crischonius abba” had received, by charter dated to [816/33][617]. Thegan's Vita Hludowici Imperatoris names "Badaradum episcopum Saxonicum et Gerhardum…ducem et Berengarium sapientem, propinquum suum" as missi of Emperor Louis[618], the passage being undated but included among text which records events in the first half of the 830s. Thegan's Vita Hludowici Imperatoris records the death in 836 of "Berengarius dux fidelius et sapiens" whom Emperor Louis and his sons "luxit multo tempore"[619].

b) [St Eberhard, margrave & duke of Friuli EBERHARD] ([805/10]-in Italy 16 Dec 866, bur Cysoing, Abbey of St Calixtus). His origin is stated in the poem by Sedulius addressed to "Everhardum comitem…Hunroci proles"[620]. His birth date is estimated on the basis of his marriage in [836]. He stopped the invasion of the Slavs and received the March of Friulia from Emperor Lothaire I, becoming EBERHARD Duke of the March of Friulia.

- MARCHESI of FRIULIA.

c) [Adalhard, abbé de Saint-Bertin ADALHARD] (-Saint-Amand 3 Feb 864, bur Saint-Amand). The cartulaire of Saint-Bertin records that "Adalardus" succeeded Hugues as Abbé de Saint-Bertin, adding that he had been offered to the monastery "a patre Hunroco"[621]. Abbé de Saint Bertin et de Saint Amand. The cartulaire of Saint-Bertin records the death "III Non Feb apud sancti Amandi monasterium" in 864 of "Adalardo" only three years after he was installed as abbot, and his burial "in eodem monasterio", adding that "hujus…pater Hunrocus" had introduced him to Saint-Bertin as a monk[622].

d) [daughter . The wife of Suppo III is shown in Europäische Stammtafeln[623] as the daughter of Unruoch but the primary source on which this is based has not yet been identified. It is probably speculative, based on the name of his son who was called "consanguineus" of Berengar I King of Italy in the latter’s charter dated 12 May 890. m SUPPO III Marchese di Spoleto, son of --- (-[878/79]).]

e) [--- . The exact relationship of Adalric to Graf Eberhard is not known, but assuming that nepos in the latter’s testament should be translated by nephew, one of Adalric’s parents was Eberhard’s sibling. m ---.] One child:

i) ADALRIC [Udalrich] (-after 866). The Historia Ecclesiæ Cisoniensis records the testament of “Evrardus comes cum coniuge mea Gisla”, dated “Hludovico Augusto anno regni eius XXIV” and witnessed by “Adalroch nepos noster”[624]. This may be the same person as “Odelrici Comitis” who signed the charter dated “Kal Jul anno XXXV regnante Carolo Rege” under which “Gisla” donated property to Cysoing abbey for her burial next to “coniugis mei dulcis memoriæ Evrardi”, recorded in the Historia Ecclesiæ Cisoniensis[625].

I found the name on the wiki (check the info-about), the connection had been there for years as NN (moved as alias)

She was mother of the children of Gebhard, count of the Lahngau

before ML identified .... im Nordgau in which, on impulse, I also merged she....
...then I found another old double wife knot of he, so I asked for an UNDO & and put the connection back as it was, but making sure the children were on ML's mother.

*https://www.geni.com/discussions/227804?msg=1458985

see above "Comte en Ternois 839" - casts doubt on it being his daughter's first name.

I can't see the zone lock you refer to.

This suggests that we don't even know the gender of the parent of Adalric who was Eberhard's sibling:)

[--- . The exact relationship of Adalric to Graf Eberhard is not known, but assuming that nepos in the latter’s testament should be translated by nephew, one of Adalric’s parents was Eberhard’s sibling. m ---.]

where was I referring here?
*https://www.geni.com/discussions/227804?msg=1458943 SOLVED

but then there were also double MPs
*https://www.geni.com/discussions/227714?msg=1458562 SOLVED

Unruoch, marquis & duke of Friuli was unlocked on March 15th, today we are 21. SOLVED

(Check revisions tab on the profiles ;)

Not sure what you're shouting about, or why you think I'm reading all your discussions. Nobody is trying to criticize you so there is no reason for your aggression. This is why Curators can't be bothered to help you. There are no thanks.

I've locked the name fields on him again.

I'm going to revert the Ternois name to NN - and possibly no gender, given your failure to engage here.

We seem to have no evidence this parent of Adalric was married to Gebhard, count of the Lahngau. Am I just not looking hard enough?

NN

same as Engeltrudis and sister to Adalard "le Sénéchal"

c) [ENGELTRUDIS . The wife of Eudes is named by Nithard who records "Hirmentrude, daughter of Odo and Ingiltrud" as the wife of Charles[107]. However, the Annales Bertiniani suggest that she was the sister of Adalhard [III] (and therefore maybe the daughter of Liuthard) when they record that "Carlomannus, Hlodowici regis Germaniæ" sought refuge with "Adalardo, Yrmintrudis reginæ avunculo, suo autem propinquo" after he was banished by his father following his rebellion in 861[108]. m [as his second wife,] EUDES Comte d'Orléans, son of --- ([770/80]-killed in battle [Touraine] Jun 834).]
http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/FRANKISH%20NOBILITY.htm#_Toc169575355

For the noobs here, Eudes it's a male name and can also be spelled Odo.

What connects the NN child of Unruoch - who is the parent of Adalric/ Udalrich, nephew of Eberhard

to

the NN wife of Gebhard, of unknown parentage - who is the sister of Ernst - and parent of Werner, Udo, Berenger, Waldo, Bertholf?

I am not seeing the connection.

ie NN child of Unruoch, marquis & duke of Friuli - who is the parent of Adalric/ Udalrich, nephew of St Eberhard, margrave & duke of Friuli

is NOT married to Gebhard, count of the Lahngau -son of Eudes "Odo", comte d'Orléans, unless there is evidence I'm missing?

cf
[--- . The exact relationship of Adalric to Graf Eberhard is not known, but assuming that nepos in the latter’s testament should be translated by nephew, one of Adalric’s parents was Eberhard’s sibling. m ---.] http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/FRANKISH%20NOBILITY.htm#_Toc371156058

and
the Annales Bertiniani which record that "Adalardo Yrmintrudis reginæ avunculo" was "propinquo" of the brothers Udo (ancestor of the Franconian Konradiner family), Berengar and Waldo who were expelled from Germany in 865[143], and in a later passage that "Adalardo…et suis propinquis Hugonis et Berengario" fought the Vikings in 865[144]. "Adalardo" was Adalhard [III], maternal uncle of Gebhard assuming the relationship is as shown here, and the brothers Udo, Berengar and Waldo were Gebhard's sons. m --- [im Nordgau], sister of Graf ERNST, daughter of ---. The relationship between the sons of Gebhard and Graf Ernst is clarified by the Annales Bertiniani which record that "nepotes ipsius [Ernestus]" were expelled from the kingdom in 861[145]. If the suggestion by Jackman concerning Gebhard's affiliation is correct, Gebhard would have been the brother-in-law not brother of Ernest, married to the latter's sister.] http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/FRANKISH%20NOBILITY.htm#Gebharddied...

Sharon Doubell wrote
"I am not seeing the connection."

Adalard "le Sénéchal"
In 861, after the revolt of Carloman, Louis' eldest son, Adalard and his relatives Udo, Berengar, and Waldo took refuge at the court of Charles in Paris.

The Annales Bertiniani record that "Adalardo Yrmintrudis reginæ avunculo" was "propinquo" of the brothers Udo (ancestor of the Franconian Konradiner family),
Berengar and Waldo who were expelled from Germany in 865[95],

Adalardo had a sister Ingeltrude of The Franks of Orleans who was married to Odo, Eudes "Odo", comte d'Orléans who had a son, Gebhard, count of the Lahngau whi in turn was the father of, Udo, Berengar and Waldo, these sons were his "propinquo", relatives.

This indicates that Gebhard's mother was sister to Adalardo. Can you see any other solution?

Adalric (EBERhard's nephew) is not the same person as Adalhard (GEBhard's uncle)

The reason the connection between Adalherd and Udo isn't showing a bloodline, is because of the huge age difference between Ermentrudis and her older brothers - that has produced the assumption that they had different mothers. cf http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/FRANKISH%20NOBILITY.htm#EudesOrlean...

If Engeltrudis isn't Gebhard's mother (but his step mother) then there is no blood relationship between his son and his stepmother's brother. As families go, though, Gebhard is still likely to have seen his relationship to the man as uncle.

If you're very invested in the connection, why not run the birth spacing numbers and see if Gebhard could logically be theorised to be a child of Engeltrudis.

Gebhard, count of the Lahngau profiles has got a too late year of birth, 832, why?
If his sons Udo, Berengar and Waldo all lived 861, and Berengar fought the vikings in 865, at least he would have been a young adult already then, suggesting that you also notice that the other son Udo now have a date of birth 2 years before his father Gebhard. If you really want to do whatever fabrication to dismiss the sources and what they indicates, well, then I do know why you alter the years and by so making it impossible for the true line to be displayed.

This, I do not even know why you wrote
"Adalric (EBERhard's nephew) is not the same person as Adalhard (GEBhard's uncle)". In what context does this fit anything mentioned earlier?

Oh really - take a hike Ulf. I can't be bothered to help you with this attitude. Do you really think I've even had a chance to look at any of the dates> let alone changing them to spite you!

What connects the NN child of Unruoch - who is the parent of Adalric/ Udalrich, nephew of Eberhard

to

the NN wife of Gebhard, of unknown parentage - who is the sister of Ernst - and parent of Werner, Udo, Berenger, Waldo, Bertholf?

I am not seeing the connection.


Sharon Doubell C
21/3/2021 at 10:25 PM
Report | Delete
ie NN child of Unruoch II, marquis & duke of Friuli - who is the parent of Adalric/ Udalrich, nephew of St. Eberhard, margrave & duke of Friuli

is NOT married to Gebhard, count of the Lahngau -son of Odo I, count of Orléans, unless there is evidence I'm missing?


Sharon Doubell C
21/3/2021 at 10:28 PM
Report | Delete
cf
[--- . The exact relationship of Adalric to Graf Eberhard is not known, but assuming that nepos in the latter’s testament should be translated by nephew, one of Adalric’s parents was Eberhard’s sibling. m ---.] http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/FRANKISH%20NOBILITY.htm#_Toc371156058

and
the Annales Bertiniani which record that "Adalardo Yrmintrudis reginæ avunculo" was "propinquo" of the brothers Udo (ancestor of the Franconian Konradiner family), Berengar and Waldo who were expelled from Germany in 865[143], and in a later passage that "Adalardo…et suis propinquis Hugonis et Berengario" fought the Vikings in 865[144]. "Adalardo" was Adalhard [III], maternal uncle of Gebhard assuming the relationship is as shown here, and the brothers Udo, Berengar and Waldo were Gebhard's sons. m --- [im Nordgau], sister of Graf ERNST, daughter of ---. The relationship between the sons of Gebhard and Graf Ernst is clarified by the Annales Bertiniani which record that "nepotes ipsius [Ernestus]" were expelled from the kingdom in 861[145]. If the suggestion by Jackman concerning Gebhard's affiliation is correct, Gebhard would have been the brother-in-law not brother of Ernest, married to the latter's sister.] http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/FRANKISH%20NOBILITY.htm#Gebharddied...

Sharon Doubell

Abusive comment., "take a hike", not fitting a curator only done in a manner to deprive my credibility as serious. The rest exposes yours as always bullying attitude against me.

I really do not understand anything else you wrote. What does it have to do with my wish to solve Gebhard, count of the Lahngau's mother, possible being Ingeltrude of The Franks of Orleans? https://www.geni.com/discussions/228089?msg=1460476

Ulf - your ugly attitude to my attempt to help you - deserves no more attention, so I'm telling you to walk away because I have. You happily insult people whenever it suits and "Fabrication" is a bizarre accusation that lowered the tone immediately. Don't expect people to treat you well when you abuse them.

The point of the rest was that your response to my "I am not seeing the connection." had nothing to so with what I was talking about at all - unless you were confusing the profiles - so I tried to help by explaining they were different people.

I'm done helping here, so please get your last word in and then walk away too.

Now the level of the discussion is again below schoolyard quarrels.

There are many people descending from the persons discussed that should encourage treating the historical persons not just like "My uncle Joe was not the father of his first son, gossip has it that ...".

Devoted historians spent lifetimes studying and debating some periods of history. And to force a discussion to come to conclusions at a very short time is not scientific and professional.

All sources can't be found online and these days many libraries are closed during the pandemic.

So, be scientific, professional and polite or be offensive somewhere else.

Sharon, I want to thank you for your extensive research. Some of us are new to all this genealogy stuff and greatly appreciate those who give so freely of their time and knowledge.

Thank you Andrew - that is so appreciated.

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