Index of Lines Claiming Descent from David-Exilarch Root Tree

Started by Private User on Sunday, March 14, 2021
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Private User
3/14/2021 at 11:03 AM

For future reference, as of this writing I am aware of 5 lines: 1) Abravanel (yDNA group unknown) Don Isaac Abarbanel, 2) Yahia/Charlap (yDNA macrogroup: R1b1a): Private User, 3) Shaltiel (yDNA macrogroup J1): Moshe Abraham Shaltiel (J-M267), 4) Dayan (yDNA macrogroup: R1a1a): Mitchell Dayan, 5) Benveniste (yDNA group unknown): Yosef "Cidellus" ibn Ferruzi'el, Nasi of Toledo, Vizier, Lt of El Cid. The common ancestor on the GENI tree of all five lines is: Abba Mari ben Ukba, 20th Exilarch

Needed: 1) a yDNA reading for the Mitchell Dayan patriline, 2) yDNA readings for the Don Isaac Benveniste patriline.

If anyone happens upon additional evidence pertaining to this discussion please post the findings here.
Next Steps: compile as many yDNA readings for the various descending lines and then see where the preponderance of the evidence rests

Private User
3/14/2021 at 3:35 PM

Most appreciative, this is wonderful.

In checking inconsistencies in my line I found a total of 44 reported (only 13 that I am able to view with the Software Program, for some strange reason) -- most of which are fairly insignificant, imho. But there are a few that seem 'critical' to me, and I wonder what others may think of them:

Hormozd III, King of Persia should be born after his parent Dinak, Empress of Sasanian Persia (a Data Conflict is also present on her profile).

Yazdegerd II, King of Persia has a birth event listed in his profile prior to his own birth date.

Fernão Mendes de Bragança, o Velho and his spouse Thereza Soares are 91 years apart (in age).

A woman, Balendukht had 1 child between the ages of 64 and 95 years old. The child in question, Dachi King of Iberia is in the direct lineage.

Yazdegerd II, King of Persia had 1 child between the ages of 0 and 15 years old. This child, Hormozd III, King of Persia is also in the direct lineage.

Data Conflicts are associated with most of the problems listed here.

Another huge concern is that some Geni glitch (?) will not allow me to open and view the entire list of inconsistencies (I can only see 13 of the 44 reported, because clicking on "Click here to load more" is unproductive.

So I really hope that is fixed soon.

Private User
3/14/2021 at 4:21 PM

Between Yosef "Cidellus" ibn Ferruzi'el, Nasi of Toledo, Vizier, Lt of El Cid and Peroz I, Shah of Persia

...41 inconsistencies are reported by Geni's relationship calculator.

Again, I am only enabled to see 15 of those, as the rest will not open with this software program.

The most critical (imho):

Hisdai Shahrijar "Sheshna" ben Bustanai, Exilarch & Gaon of Sura had a birth date after his parent's Hananya "Bustenai" ben Haninai, Exilarch & Gaon of Pumbeditha death date.

Sassanid Princess Dara Izdadwar should be born after her parent Yazdgerd III, Shah of Persia

Yehuda "Zakai" ben David, 29th Exilarch 'Judah II' and spouse Unknown are 54 years apart (in age).

Yehuda "Zakai" ben David, 29th Exilarch 'Judah II' had 1 child between the ages of 0 and 15 years old. This child, Mar Ukba ben Judah, 31th Exilarch is not in the direct lineage, but is considered a brother to the one who is ( Hizkiya "Zuṭṭa" ben Yehudah, Exilarch #30, 33 & 35, Final Gaon of Pumbeditha ).

3/14/2021 at 6:16 PM

What is a yDNA reading?

Private User
3/14/2021 at 8:22 PM

Hello Debra, I am happy to hear of your interest in this project and of your descent from the root tree (which brings the club to six, to my knowledge). To maintain my sanity, I would like to avoid delving too deeply into the inconsistencies at this stage. What I am proposing is that anyone with a claimed descent from the root tree, share the patriline yDNA signature with the group. The goal of this exercise is to see if there is one haplogroup that occurs more frequently than any other. At that point a little weed-delving may be in order on the lines that are in the most frequent group (and if warranted, come back to your list of inconsistencies). Based on a glance at your tree it seems you may be unable to test your father's patriline. If this is true, then I would encourage you to be patient in the hopes that other testable descendants may lend a hand. Keep Well, Adam.

Private User
3/14/2021 at 8:24 PM

By yDNA reading I mean nothing more than catching a glimpse of the yDNA haplogroup of a person who is believed to descend from the root tree.

Private User
3/14/2021 at 9:28 PM


Private User
3/14/2021 at 9:34 PM

Thanks Adam. You are correct, I can't get a yDNA report for my father. But was informed a few years ago by email from a Family Tree DNA administrator that, based on pedigree alone, he probably would have been "M-269". (It used to be posted on his Geni profile along with an updated version from another Denman Geni relative, but both have since disappeared for some reason I was never informed of.)

Private User
3/14/2021 at 9:51 PM

You can find Benveniste's Y-DNA results at the Sephardic Heritage project too: J1-M267 (Cohanim) and R-M269 (Iberian). As for Abarbanel I'm aware of these ones

3/15/2021 at 1:01 AM

Would love to meet up with any Haplo E matches on the David line

3/15/2021 at 5:47 PM

Regarding the Georgian/Persian Line. I had adjusted the births and deaths of some of the Georgians. It was clear many were off from primary sources. I made most births "circa" and for deaths used their known end of reign dates. However, I did not adjust the Persian line from Dachi's mother. Just a cursory look at some sources shows the line is good, just needs to move some dates to match sources.

3/17/2021 at 12:44 AM

Good job Nikolaus- still showing up as my 106th g grand dad . This makes the Bible come alive for my kids. Love it.

King David of Israel is your 106th great grandfather.
→ Dr Wilton George McDonald, Sr
your father → William Edward McDonald
his father → John William McDonald
his father → James (grandson of James Baillie) MacDonald
his father → Major Alasdair Alexander MacDonald
his father → James MacDonald
his father → Anna Robertson
his mother → Catherine Robertson
her mother → Catherine Hamilton
her mother → Sir John Hamilton of Lettrick, Knight
her father → John Hamilton, 1st Marquess of Hamilton
his father → James Hamilton, 2nd Earl of Arran
his father → James Hamilton, 1st Earl of Arran
his father → Mary Stewart, Countess of Arran
his mother → Mary of Guelders, Queen consort of Scotland
her mother → Katharina van Egmont (van Kleef), Duchess of Guelders
her mother → Mary of Burgundy
her mother → John the Fearless, Duke of Burgundy
her father → Philip II the Bold, Duke of Burgundy
his father → Bonne de Luxembourg, reine consort de France
his mother → Eliška - Elisabeth Přemyslovna, Česká královna
her mother → Wenceslaus II, King of Bohemia
her father → Kunigunda Rostislavna Přemyslovna
his mother → Prince Rostislav Mikhailovich
her father → Princess of Chernigov Olena Maria Romanovna Рюриковна, Rurikid
his mother → Predslava daugh.of Rurik Rostislavich
her mother → Anna of Turov
her mother → Jurij Jaroslavovich, prince of Turov
her father → Yaroslav of Volynya
his father → Barbara Komnene
his mother → Irene of Alania
her mother → Demetrius of Anacopia
her father → King George I of Georgia
his father → King Bagrat III of Georgia
his father → King Gurgen I of Iberia-Kartli
his father → King Bagrat II of Iberia
his father → King Sumbat I of Iberia-Kartli
his father → King Adarnase I (IV) of Iberia
his father → Prince David I of Iberia
his father → Prince Bagrat I of Iberia
his father → Ashot I the Great, Prince of Iberia
his father → unnamed wife of Adarnase I of Tao-Klarjeti of the Nersianid dynasty
his mother → Nerse the Prince of Iberia
her father → Adarnase III Prince of Iberia
his father → unnamed wife of Nerse
his mother → Mirian of Kakheti, Georgian Prince of the Royal Chosroid Dynasty
her father → Prince Stephen of Kakheti in Georgia
his father → Adarnase II Prince of Iberia
his father → Stephen II Prince of Iberia
his father → Prince Adarnase I of Iberia Khosroid dynasty
his father → Bajur III, king of Iberia
his father → King Pharasmanes VI of Iberia - Khosroid dynasty
his father → Parent of Pharasmanes VI Khosroid dynasty
his father → Barcurius II King of Iberia
his father → Dachi King of Iberia
his father → Balendukht
his mother → Hormizd III, King of Persia
her father → Yazdegerd II, King of Persia
his father → Bahrám V "of the Wild Ass", King of Persia
his father → Shoshandukt bat Mar Abba Abra
his mother → Mar Sutra
her mother → Musa "Rav Papa" bar Yosef, resh metivta al-Nehardea, 5th Gen Amora
her father → Yosef bar Yosef
his father → Yosef bar Khamma
his father → Khamma ben Nachum II, 5th Exilarch Huna I
his father → 2nd Exhilarch of Judah Nachum ben Achaya, 2nd Exilarch Nachum II
his father → Achaya bar Akkub bar Akkub, 1st Exilarch 2nd Dynasty
his father → Ya'akov ben Shlomo, Exilarch
his father → Shlomo ben Hunya, Exilarch Interregnum
his father → Hunya ben Nathan, Exilarch Interregnum
his father → Nathan (de Zuzita, Babylon) ben Shalom
his father → Shalom II ben Hizkiya, Exilarch Interregnum
his father → Hizkiya Rosh Golah of Judah ben Shehanya, 33rd Exilarch Hizkiya III
his father → Shechanya II ibn Da'ud, Exilarch
his father → Da'ud ben Shemaya, Exilarch
his father → Shemaya I ben Shlomo
his father → Shlomo III ben David Exilarch
his father → David ben Akkub
his father → Salma bat Hizkiya ibn Nearya
his mother → Hizkiyahu II ibn Nearya 21st Exilarch
her father → Neriyah, 18th Exilarch
his father → Bariah Ben Shemaya
his father → Semaya Ben Shechanya
his father → Shechanya Ben Ovadya
his father → Obaja Ben Amay (Aranan
his father → Arnan Ben Rafaya
his father → Refaya (e Ben Chananya
his father → Yeshaiah ben Hananya
his father → Hananya, 5th Exilarch
his father → Zerubbabel 3rd Exilarch / זרובבל
his father → Salathial ., 2nd Exilarch
his father → King Jechoniah, 18th King of Judah
his father → Jehoiakim Elyakim, 17th King of Judah
his father → Josiah, 15th King of Judah
his father → Amon ., 14th King of Judah
his father → Menasseh ., 13th King of Judah
his father → Hephzi-bah .
his mother → Isaiah The Prophet
her father → Amoz .
his father → Jehoaddan .
his mother → Jehosheba .
her mother → Jehoram, 5th King of Judah
her father → Jehosaphat, 4th King of Judah
his father → Asa ., 3rd King of Judah
his father → Abijah ., 2nd King of Judea Kingdom
his father → Rehoboam ., 1st King of Judea Kingdom
his father → King Solomon
his father → King David of Israel
his father

I know very little about DNA, you mentioned R-M269, that is my match Y-DNA12 match William Irwin (kit 475784). Family Tree DNA.

3/18/2021 at 12:53 AM

Do you have a GED match number William Owen?

Dr Will Jr (G#- RY5777771) R-M269
Y-37 - (kit 475784). Family Tree DNA. is all I know

Private User
9/18/2021 at 9:54 PM

Update: I've finally manged to gather all the ydna haplogroups and here is how things stand at that moment:

1) there are two claimant lineages close enough to think about their possibly being descended from the same ancestor in Davidic times: the Yahia/Charlap and the Benveniste (R) lineages. Both are in the R1b-DF27 sub-tree and they could have had a common ancestor within the Davidic time frame. However, according to various academic papers I have read, DF27 formed in about 2479 BCE in the Western Mediterranean as part of the Celtiberian migration into Spain. Somehow, the Celtiberian Davidic ancestral line would have had to return to the Near East and join the Jewish people by the time of King David circa 1000 BCE. This doesn't seem likely to me, although 1500 years is a long time and anything is possible, I suppose. I am not aware of any evidence suggesting any DF27 sub-branches returned to the Near East, and as far as I know there aren't any ancient samples from the Near East in the DF27 sub-tree, are there? Since both the Yahia/Charlap and Benveniste are Sephardic it seems to make sense that their ydna line may have arrived to Spain with the Celtiberians and then introgressed into the Jewish population at time when intermarriage during pre-Rabbinical times. I myself am in the DF27 sub-tree and this is how I am conceptualizing my own ydna lineage.

2) according to my understanding the Shaltiel claim is based on a no longer valid patriline relationship to the Yahia/Charlap tree and can therefore be omitted from further discussion, at least for now,

3) I see no reasonable way to evaluate the Abrabanel claim using ydna since I have not seen a pedigree tying anyone alive today to the old Abrananel line; there are some Abrabanels on FTDNA and are in the J-L817 tree but I am not aware of how they connect to the old Abrabanels, so for now I am omitting the Abrabanel line from further discussion,

4) this leaves the Dayan of Aleppo claim, which seems to be the most likely Davidic ydna lineage at this moment because the haplogroup is known to have been in the Near East at the time of David and there is a genealogy in place. What would seal the deal for me would be if there are any Abrabanels who are in the same haplogroup as the Dayans. I don't expect another person in the same haplogroup as the Dayans any time soon, because theirs is a Near Eastern haplogroup and there aren't too many FTDNA testers from that area in the database.

This is how I view the research at present and would appreciate any constructive feedback.

10/26/2021 at 10:36 PM


Private User
10/27/2021 at 6:11 AM

Thanks for the information. I've looked briefly iat your ancestor report on GENI and wasn't able find your Jewish ancestor(s) there. Could you please paste the URL(s) here of the ancestor(s) you have identified as Jewish? Thanks.

I'd like to bring attention to the fact that a certain individual with the last name Williamson meantioned something about 2 years ago in reference to discovering a match to a certain historical figure and his line. If one discovered they have a match to this individual that would be deemed somewhat close?!

That one would have in my case just like Williamson described verbatim have 40 million matches in the world family tree redacted/deleted from your profile!

Once I discovered this match pretty much immediately I had 9 or 10 people send me follow requests which I accepted.

Now I no longer have a blood relationship to this historical figure on my paternal or maternal side. I only have a in-law relationship.

I had matched and followed this historical figure probably 3 close to 4 years no qualms what so ever. Then after merging my tree I find a closer relationship to this individual and not long afterwards I have 40 million matches that I followed on the world family tree all of a sudden redacted/deleted.

Then the following things I already mentioned happened the next few times I logged in?!


I did a search for consumer complaints about Geni there were other complaints that were rather scathing?! Look I'm not trying to stir anything I just think it's rather interesting an individual posted about this 2 years ago and out of nowhere I matched this historical figure the why he described and exactly verbatim what he said happened to me?! Lol 😆

*way not why typo

Unless someone can back up the logic with verifiable historical/genealogical references and incase I'm mistaken and wrong I'll accept it. I'll do my own due dilligent research myself to verify someone's response?!

To whom it may concern

Thank you

12/25/2021 at 8:04 PM

Somebody cut my lines and currently it shows there is no in law relationship and there is no blood relationship however I used to have it on both my mother side and my father side!!
…. king David used to be my 101st great grandfather and Jesus was my 10th cousin many generations removed
I have screenshots of the old way that it was but it seems like people go in there and take it apart and then put it back together all the time…

But this this dna thing can be really definitive very interesting indeed!!

It seems like various different religions have various different reasons for why they need to …..oh what do they call it “ cancel” certain lines ….because, I’m guessing it doesn’t follow with their religious beliefs or whatever I have noticed that in here before too….

I first noticed that Jesus was my 10th cousin many generations removed and that the king David of Israel with my 101st great grandfather in the spring of 2019 and it has been changed repeatedly since then recently though I think it is early is the first part of December it was put back in order and now I see I have no connection to Jesus once again so it’s hard to say what anybody’s doing in here

12/25/2021 at 8:06 PM

I don’t Nother note I noticed that Jesus‘s mother Mary’s sister Elizabeth is not connected to her has anyone else noticed that?

12/25/2021 at 8:06 PM

On another note…

12/25/2021 at 8:28 PM

Nilda Ana de la ….

12/25/2021 at 8:34 PM

Message me privately I have screenshots that are showing me as being directly descended from Abraham

Maybe that will give you something to work with it sounds like somebody destroyed what was built I’m not really sure what’s going on here but I do have a good bunch of what used to be in here It shows Mohammed peace be unto him as being a cousin and it shows Moses is being a many timesgreat grandfather even went all the way to Adam and Eve!

Anyway this seems like a conversation that some of the managers in curators should be involved with ??….

And if not will feel free to message me because I’m happy to share what I have screenshots of…

Private User
12/28/2021 at 8:13 AM

I agree with you Cheley. He is my 91st great grandfather from my mother side through the maternal ancestors of my 33rd great grandfather.

4/3/2022 at 12:28 AM

Baruj Hashem and peace to all of the readers or involved people, there is no need to claim anything, if the people who recognices this heritage has Hashem with in their lives. The King of Kings the Jewish Diaspora doesnt needs Royals, The Jewish World needs People to have conciousness, the world needs love, the world needs more Tsadaka, Hemet, Shalom, and Justice remember if our Meshiaj comes would like him to see this discution?
for those who claim, Pray the world needs more Jewish People and that conects more than anything with the real welth being Jewish makes us more than royals, lets claim to our ouwn Tikun to be fair Human Beings. blessings to all and I hope my words do not unconfort nobody.

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