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Thomas Ingram - Y-DNA Conflict

Started by Debbie Gambrell on Sunday, January 17, 2021
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Debbie Gambrell
1/17/2021 at 12:45 AM

I've been trying to clarify the Y-DNA conflict on some of the Ingrams on Geni. Here's what I know at this point:

My son Len Ingram is descended from Thomas' son Charles but it comes down to him through an Ingram daughter, Martha 'Patsy' Ingram, so the Y-DNA isn't passed from that line to my son Len. That being the case, the fact that Charles is showing as R-M269 is not a problem.

EXCEPT...my son Len Ingram is also descended from Charles' brother John down a direct male line to my son, including the male on this line who married Martha 'Patsy' Ingram from Charles' line. Four Ingram males on John's side, representing 3 different branches of the Ingram lines, have all tested I-253. They include my son Len Ingram, his first cousin once removed John Ingram, John's son Shawn Ingram, and 6th cousin once removed Leland Virgil Ingram Jr..

Len's profile is: Len Ingram

Leland Virgil 'Lee' Ingram Jr.'s profile is private but his Y-DNA results show on his sister Nancy's profile. She is one of the Ingram cousins I have collaborated with regarding the lines:
Nancy N. Ingram (Keiser)

John's profile is:
Private

Shawn Ingram's profile is:
Private

All four of the above men are descendants of Thomas Ingram and Katherine Winter. John and Shawn don't have their DNA loaded to their Geni profiles, but I've been in communication with Shawn's half-sister who manages their DNA results and she assured me they're I-M253. Also, the Ingram Y-DNA Project on FTDNA show the common ancestor Goldman Ingram as I-M253.

The only descendant whose Y-DNA has been uploaded to Geni and is in conflict is this David Ingram, a descendant of Thomas Ingram and Katherine Winter's son Charles:

David Ingram

I messaged this David Ingram last year but never got a response.

One thing is certain: There is no way Thomas Ingram had two biological sons with different Y-DNA haplogroups.

You can see on Thomas' son John's profile how the conflicting haplogroups show:

John Ingram, I

On Thomas and his son Charles' profiles it shows R-M269. I don't know why the two don't carry on up the line since both sons are connected to Thomas. For some reason, David Ingram's R-M269 is all that carried forward at this point.

Bottom line, if you or someone you know is a male descendant of Thomas Ingram and Katherine Winter's son Charles, please upload your Y-DNA results and post to this discussion so we can determine if the results or I-M253 or R-M269 since we know of at least 4 males on Thomas' son John's lines with the I-M253 haplogroup and only have one known descendant on son Charles' line with the R-M269 haplogroup.

Trying to make sense of this, all I can determine at this point is that either David Ingram with the R-M269 is from a different Ingram family unless other descendants of Thomas' son Charles match David OR the John Ingram who is the direct ancestor of the Ingram males with the I-M253 haplogroup wasn't a biological son of Thomas Ingram.

Nancy N. Ingram (Keiser)
1/19/2021 at 12:20 PM

Hi Debbie, Looks like you are still seining for DNA minnows! When this first popped up I thought it was someone new responding, but then read your name! So Dr. Ingram's research didn't have anything to solve the mystery? I have done nothing on geneology of late, have family members terribly sick with Covid, so my thoughts have all been there.

Just FYI: I did get my mtDNA done and it was H27c. I knew it was H but I wanted some refinement on that haplo. Doesn't have anything to do with our Ingrams, of course.

But reading your description of the conundrum: where didThomas came from?

My John's father was Goldman, not Thomas. Goldman's father was William. William's father was Benjamin John. My John was the father of William Marion, who was father of Virgil Estell who was father to my Dad, Leland Virgil.

So no Thomas in my line. Dr. CT Ingram is Charles Thomas however. Did you ever communicate with him, see if he ever did his DNA? He isn't a fan but might have decided to do it after all.

I have a first cousin, David Ingram, who has done his DNA, is in 23andMe (I think). I could contact him and ask about his haplo, but I don't think he is the same David, is he??

Let me know how I can help. Nancy
Debbie Gambrell
1/20/2021 at 10:45 AM

Hi Nancy! I passed Dr. Ingram's info along to Len and told him he should contact him, but Len has been busy working his regular job and starting a new business as well, so as usual he has no time for genealogy research. Dr. Ingram's work was helpful to me though in connecting some of the lines. It sounds like I need to revisit yours to make sure I have it correct in my tree. But the common connection between your line and Len's is Benjamin John. The Thomas that is common up the line for your branch, Len's branch and the David whose Y-DNA doesn't match is a few generations back, so you do have that Thomas up your lines. He was the one married to Katherine Winter and they're the couple showing on Geni having two sons with conflicting DNA, which can't be correct. Dr. Ingram's paper trails can't solve the issue of conflicting DNA. Since you know him already and I don't, maybe you could ask if he ever got his Y-DNA tested. That would be great!

I have no idea if the David who has the conflicting DNA is your cousin David. That said, it would definitely help if he could load his DNA to Geni to help solve this or at least, if he has already had his Y-DNA tested, he can let us know which haplogroup he's showing. He 'should' match your brother's, Len's, etc.

I'm so very sorry to know you have family members with Covid. We know of so many families now who have had it. I have a 1st cousin who was down with it for about six weeks and we have a close friend who works in healthcare who got it and has to take extended leave because even though he eventually tested negative, the long-term effects have left him so fatigued that when he tried to return to work he was unable to hold up and was sent home. That's one thing that doesn't get enough publicity...the fact that even those who have recovered aren't restored to their former health just because they test negative. Prayers for your family members who are dealing with this.

My mtDNA haplogroup is H as well, just a different mutatation group. But that means that somewhere way back in time we must have a very, very distant common female ancestor. lol
Debbie Gambrell
1/20/2021 at 10:50 AM

Nancy, this is how you're showing connected back to the Thomas Ingram and Katherine Winter which is where the split in Y-DNA haplogroups is happening:

Nancy N. Ingram (Keiser) is Thomas Ingram's 8th great granddaughter.
Thomas Ingram
→ John Ingram
his son → William Ingram
his son → Benjamin John Ingram
his son → William Ingram
his son → Goldman Ingram
his son → John Ingram
his son → William Marion Ingram
his son → Virgil Estell Ingram
his son → <private> (Ingram)
his son → Nancy N. Ingram (Keiser)
his daughter
Debbie Gambrell
1/20/2021 at 10:55 AM

Keep in mind. I'm not an Ingram, so I have to depend on you direct Ingram descendants to know the lines better than I do. I used the research of Ingram descendants for everything I know about the lines, including what's on Geni. Some of the profiles in this line from Thomas down have been on Geni since 2008 but others added as recently as 2017. To the best of my knowledge, they do match what Dr. Ingram's research shows, but do let me know if you find an eorror wo we can collaborate to fix it.
Polly GEDmatch kit # TA7057982
11/2/2021 at 2:06 PM

Thomas Ingram is my 9th GGF💓

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