Szajndla Lidzbarska (Gezundhajt) - Tombstone photo

Dear Sharon,
It’s mentioned in the rubrique “About” of the profile. I always attach the direct links to all profiles I manage as the poof links of the information I put.
The cemetery is Okopowa in Warszawa. The information is taken from JRI-Poland database.
Here is the link:

https://cemetery.jewish.org.pl/id_2411/size_normal/photo.jpg
https://cemetery.jewish.org.pl/id_33753/info/

Bella, I need to understand the relationship between Szandla Lidzbarska and my great aunt Fajga Lidzbarska nee Goldberg and Wolf Lidzbarski'?

Abe,
Feyga is Szajndla’s daughter in law- the wife of her son.

Hersz Wolf Lidzbarski- Szajndla’s son is Feyga’s husband

Thanks Bella, I found it

Thanks Bella, I found it

This seems to be the tombstone of Hersz Wolf Lidzbarski. https://cemetery.jewish.org.pl/id_40116/info/back_1:0/__Lidzbarski....
Any idea why it says that he was the son-in-law (or perhaps the father-in-law) of Yitzchak Meir Alter from Góra Kalwaria??

Dear Sharon,

I think if under this stone buried Hersz Wolf Lidzbarski the stone must say that “his father-in-law was the grandson-in-law of Meir-Yitzhak Alter (the 1st gerrer rabbi) from Gora Kalwaria - the great grandfather of Feyga Goldberg (Lidzbarski) - his wife.

Everything depends - whom they mentioned as “Yitzhak Meir [Alter] from Gora Kalwaria”? :
1) Yitzhak Meier Kahan (his wive’s grandfather) or
2) her great grandfather Yitzhak Meir Alter (Rotenberg) - the father of her maternal grandmother Ester?

If he only was the son of Szajndla Lidzbarski the transcription on the stone is erroneous (the mixing up between the generations)
Because the father-in-law of Hersz Wolf Lidzbarski’s wife Feyga Goldberg was Rafael-Zawel Goldberg. And her mother - Chaia Sura Kahan - the daughter of Yitzhak Meir Kahan and Ester Alter [Rotenberg](daughter of Yitzhak Meir Alter from Gora Kalwaria)
Sometimes this site about Jewish cemeteries makes mistakes too...
If not - he could be the husband of one of daughters of Yitzhak Meir Alter [Rotenberg] from Kalwaria and the uncle of Hersz Wolf Lidzbarski that was named after him (the son of one of Szajndla’s brothers - if she only had one - that she called her son after her brother???)

Don’t see any other explanation.

Somebody helped me decipher the text hidden below the family name.
It says in Hebrew: son -in-law of the Chiddushei HaRim

I now found out that indeed the relationship was through his mother-in-law, who was, as you said, the granddaughter of Yitzhak Meir Alter, the Gerer rebbe

I didn’t quite understand your second option.
Was there a relationship between Szajndla Lidzbarski to the Alter/Rotenberg family?

He must be Szajndla’s son. Her nephews wouldn’t be named Lidzbarski

You are wright: it could be her husbands’ brother’s son.

I’ve seen some marriage between Lidzbarski and Alter family in Mlawa? From the years 1860’s. there lived at least two Alter families that must be checked for the relationship to Lidzbarski family.
The common rule was to name the nephew after his uncle. So the husband of Feyga Goldberg - Hersz Wolf Lidzbarski could have been named after his paternal uncle?
Why I suppose that? The generation of R’Yitzhak Meir Alter was much earlier to fit the age of Hersz Wolf of Feyga to be his son-in-law. Moreover we know that his father-in-law was Rafael-Zawel Goldberg and not Y-M Alter. So he wasn’t the son-in-law of R’ Y-M Alter. Not him. But another Tzvi Zeev Lidzbarski.
Lidzbarski was very big family and it could happen that more than one person had this name.

Dear Bella, I have researched the Lidzbarski-Alter-Rozenberg relationship from Mlawa, as this is my relatively close family.

I am certain Hersz Wolf was Szajndla's son.
The Yichus to the Chidushey Harim was engraved on his grave although his wife was only a great granddaughter of the rebbe, probably because it was such a good Yichus

So, you mean that the phrase on his grave just makes his link to a family of the descendants of Y-M Alter and not directly makes Hersz Wolf the son-in-law of R’ Alter?
Could be....taking into account the father (Rafael-Zawel Goldberg), grand father (Israel-Meir Kahan) and both great grandfathers (R’ Hercel Kahan and Yitzhak Meir Alter) of his wife were very famous.

PS I’m interested in Alter [Rotenberg] family from Mlawa - in their marriage couples. I need it to my research about the other Rotenbergs I have in my tree. Do you have this branch well studied?

Yes, that’s my assumption.
Any idea where I can read about her father, grand father and great grandfather R’ Hercel Kahn?

I think that the Alter family from Mlawa is not related to the famous Alter/Rotenberg family.
I invite you to my MyHeritage tree and I will also work on expanding my Geni tree.

Matys Alter was born in 1842 in Mlawa to Icek and Chaia Estera born Szpira. Icek was 42 at the time, based on Matys’ birth record.
Icek can’t be Yitzhak Meir Alter, nor one of his children. The only connection I can think of would be that they were cousins bearing the same name and that one cousin copied his surname from the other. This is far fetched and has no evidential basis.

Matys married Krusia Lidzbarska, Wulf Hersz Lidzbarski’s aunt. Their son Dawid Alter married His 2nd cousin Sura Rozenberg.
Sura Rozenberg was my 1st cousin, 3 times removed. Dawid Alter was my 2nd cousin, 3 times removed.

Her father was Gerrer Rabbi and R’ Hercel Kahan was the rabbi of Biala and Kock. You can ask the advice of Abe Goldberg that takes part of this discussion as he is the direct descendant of both.
I’ll be happy to look into your tree.
The question about the link between Alter from Mlawa and Alter( Rotenberg) from Warszawa is very interesting issue because actually the name « Alter » isn’t a surname but the nickname given to Yitzhak Meir for his extraordinary intellectual talents that he proved in very young age ( was as clever as an old Rabbi).
So, it never existed before and was appropriated by his descendants only. Mostly this nickname was added to the real name as the « quality ». If only your Alter from Mlawa hadn’t any totally different surname that was « dropped » later.

According to my (not completely achieved) research the Rotenberg family members cross married between them. As you can see that here we have the example of this ( two married Lidzbarski with the family members of the same (« presumed« ) clan linked to Rotenbergs. They have even more other marriages with Warszawa’s area families. So it could be very probable that there was some relationship between two Alter families.

Moreover... My personal hypothesis is that Szpira family plays here not the last role: I do think that R’ Gercel Kahan was my GGGGrandfather’s Dawid Kahan brother. And their mother Royza Kahan was from Szper (Szapira) family. They never married strangers. It’s proved many many times.

It’s also be interesting to compare our DNA (if you only made one?). In order to check my hypothesis.