Sir Adam Palmer - Iseding HOUSE - wife of Adam Palmer

Hmm - no. Sir John Pelham, knight of the Bath, Sheriff of Sussex and Surrey
Birth: between 1329 and 1384
Death: 1429 (44-101)

is not likely to have had a daughter before 1354
So NN Pelham Palmer
Birth: estimated between 1311 and 1353 isn't so useful

Which makes her son's present birth estimate of before 1354 impossible.

I think you're correct - she can't be the daughter of the knight.

Or she can't be the mother of Adam

Seems Sir John had NO legitimate daughters (alive at his death)
" In his later years Pelham could with ease have supported the estate of a baron, for after his acquisition of Crowhurst and the other manors granted him in reversion by Henry IV, his income from land alone exceeded £870 p.a.26 Since he had no legitimate children to inherit these estates, he had made a number of settlements in favour of his bastard son, to the exclusion of his right heirs (the children of his two sisters). Furthermore, shortly before his death, he placed all his moveable goods in the keeping of his wife, Joan, his son and Bishop Langley." https://www.historyofparliamentonline.org/volume/1386-1421/member/p...

Disconnecting the relationship to NN Palmer

Removing Joan Pelham as Sir John's wife

But- this genealogy is a problem:https://books.google.co.za/books?id=okhFAAAAYAAJ&lpg=PA313&...

Pelham's pedigree attached to Palmers on GENI does not match the known sources:
https://books.google.ru/books?redir_esc=y&hl=ru&id=mvk-AQAA...
https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Dictionary_of_National_Biography,_18...

According to these sources, it should be like this:
1. Thomas de Pelham, fl. 1346
his son:
2. Sir John Pelham
Actively participated in the Battle of Poitiers (19 Sept 1356)
fl. 1369
Wife: Joan, daughter of Vincent Herbert alias Finch, of Netherfield, Sussex
son of Sir John and Joan Finch:
3. Sir John Pelham, KB, Sheriff of Sussex &c (The Palmer lineage indicates that he was the father of John Palmer's wife.)
Appointed Constable of Pevensey Castle 17th Rich II (1394)
Created KB 1399
Elected to Parliament for Sussex 5th Hen VII (1427)
Will dated February 8, 1428-9, died four days after the date of his will
Wife: Joan, daughter of Sir John Escures
Here is also an alternate version for Sir John Pelham's parents and wives:
https://www.historyofparliamentonline.org/volume/1386-1421/member/p...

Considering the activities of Sir John Pelham, KB, I assume that he was born around 1360-1365 or later.
So, from my point of view, it is doubtful that John Palmer, who had already come of age in 1375, could have married his daughter. It is more likely that she could be the sister of Sir John Pelham, KB. In any case, there is no information about this marriage in Pelham's sources.

Here is a better version of the Pelhams on GENI:
Sir John Pelham

I think it makes sense to clean up the wrong Pelhams in the Palmer lineage on GENI and point out that John Palmer's wife may have descended from these Pelhams. Finding out her real parentage requires more study.

Re: Here is also an alternate version for Sir John Pelham's parents and wives:
https://www.historyofparliamentonline.org/volume/1386-1421/member/p...
This is the one I used - which doesn't agree with the one connected to: Sir John Pelham

The pressing question is who the parents of Sir John Pelham, knight of the Bath, Sheriff of Sussex and Surrey are.

https://www.historyofparliamentonline.org/volume/1386-1421/member/p... sees them as Thomas Pelham of Warbleton by Agnes, da. and coh. of Robert Gensing of Gensing, Suss.

This is completely different to this: According to these sources, it should be like this:
1. Thomas de Pelham, fl. 1346
his son:
2. Sir John Pelham
Actively participated in the Battle of Poitiers (19 Sept 1356)
fl. 1369
Wife: Joan, daughter of Vincent Herbert alias Finch, of Netherfield, Sussex
son of Sir John and Joan Finch:
3. Sir John Pelham, KB, Sheriff of Sussex &c (The Palmer lineage indicates that he was the father of John Palmer's wife.)
Appointed Constable of Pevensey Castle 17th Rich II (1394)
Created KB 1399
Elected to Parliament for Sussex 5th Hen VII (1427)
Will dated February 8, 1428-9, died four days after the date of his will
Wife: Joan, daughter of Sir John Escures

Re:3. Sir John Pelham, KB, Sheriff of Sussex &c (The Palmer lineage indicates that he was the father of John Palmer's wife.)

I disconnected this a while back.

cf:PELHAM, John (d.1429), of Pevensey castle and Laughton, Suss. https://www.historyofparliamentonline.org/volume/1386-1421/member/p...
s. and h. of Thomas Pelham of Warbleton by Agnes, da. and coh. of Robert Gensing of Gensing, Suss. m. (1) c. Sept. 1387, Margaret (25 Sept. 1363-90), er. da. and coh. of Sir Roger Grey (d.1371) of Cavendish, Suff. and Merton, Norf., wid. of Sir Thomas Shardelowe of Fulbourn, Cambs., s.p.; (2) bef. May 1400, Joan (d.1439), da. of John Bramshott of Bramshott, Hants by Elizabeth, sis. and h. of John Lisle of Gatcombe, I.o.W., wid. of Sir Hugh Zouche (d.1399) of Ashby-de-la-Zouche, Leics. and Swavesey, Cambs. 1s. illegit. Kntd. 11 Oct. 1399.

The correct pedigree of the early Pelhams and Palmer's connection to Pelhams requires a careful study of the primary sources because there are many contradictions in the secondary sources. In this form, it is a kind of sketch of a pedigree.

True. If you want to start doing that - I'll happily correct it for you.

https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Dictionary_of_National_Biography,_18...

This is IPM for
JOHN PELHAM, KNIGHT
222 Writ. ‡ 14 February 1429. [Stokes].
http://www.inquisitionspostmortem.ac.uk/view/inquisition/23-222/

That's useful.

"He died on 12 February last. John Colbrond and Joan wife of Thomas atte Hale are his kin and next heirs. John is the son of Agnes sister of John Pelham , and Joan is the daughter of Joan, his other sister. John is aged 21 and more, and Joan is aged 30 and more."

Which suggests that "John Pelham, knight, junior , delivering seisin to him and his heirs in fee simple in perpetuity" was indeed illegitimate

It seems that this information about John Pelham's children is more in line with his IPM:
https://www.historyofparliamentonline.org/volume/1386-1421/member/p...
Collins Peerage gives his sisters as his daughters.

The History of Parliament is a newer publication than Collins Peerage, and I think it makes sense to consider History of Parliament as a more accurate secondary source.

Here is information from Magna Carta Ancestry (pp. 140 - 141), it corresponds to the History of Parliament:
https://books.google.ru/books?id=8JcbV309c5UC&pg=PA141&lpg=...

This means that John Palmer's wife was definitely not the daughter of that Sir John Pelham, but that doesn't help with her parentage.

Suggests this duplicate of the son Sir John Pelham, Kt. is incorrect, unless there was no marriage to Joan Pelham?

and this info on the profile is garbled:
Had two wives, m.1st Joan de Escures children John (only son), Agnes (Colbrond), Joan (Seynclere) : m.2nd Joan de Courcy children: William, Thomas, Catherine (Bramshot)(Lewknor), Cecily (Lunsford), Joan (Covert)(Ashbornham)

Sources
A biographical peerage of the empire of Great Britain: in which ..., Volume 1 By Sir Egerton Brydges Pg.364
Collins, The peerage of England. 3 vols. in 4. Sig. N6,7 of vol. 1, 3B1 of vol. 2 ... edited by Baruch Longmate Pg.113

because it's clear from the DN that this "m.1st Joan de Escures children John (only son), Agnes (Colbrond), Joan (Seynclere)" is a reference to his father's sisters - not his children.

Sorry cross posting - but I see coming to the same conclusion

Private User and Private User - any thoughts?

Joan Pelham - if she exists - is also garbled:

Her About says:
Daughter of Sir John Pelham. Married John Pelham. Mother of Sir John Pelham, Knight, b. of, Laughton, Sussex, England , d. 1466

County genealogies: Pedigrees of the families in the county of Sussex By William Berry Pg.313 CHART
https://histfam.familysearch.org/getperson.php?personID=I60809&...
* The Wallop Family and Their Ancestry, Watney, Vernon James, (4 volumes. Oxford: John Johnson, 1928), FHL book Q 929.242 W159w; FHL microfilm 1696491 items 6-9., vol. 3 p. 613.

Daughter, wife and mother of John Pelham makes her suspect imo.

Her mooted father - John Escures is completely unsourced.

Here is a fairly detailed work describing the early Pelhams and based on "Pelham, The Hon Mrs Arthur and McLean, David, Some Early Pelhams. Hove, Sussex, Combridges, 1931".
http://www.coopersfarm.co.uk/church/pelham.htm

This is a detailed site with links to sources
https://buist-keatch.org/buist/goring/3628.html

But, unfortunately, there is nothing there regarding the connection with John Palmer.
I think that finding the origin of John Palmer's wife at the present time is not only difficult but perhaps impossible.

Yes - I'm happy that the likelihood of pinpointing John Palmer's wife is small and part of the long game.

Getting this line correct here though may still be doable.

The Sinclair marriage can be disposed of. I've left a note on John Seyneclere.

In the tree there's another candidate for Joan's husband. But from Pelham's IPM we know Joan left a sole heiress.

Thank you.

Further cleaning up of Palmer's lineage is required.
Please see discussions here:
John Palmer, of Angmering
Robert Palmer
Katherine Arderne (Palmer)