Oda of Saxony - Alternative Data After Merges

Dear Sharon for this family you must be for the researchers in Germany / Munich. The retired Prof. Eduard Hlawitschka was the researcher. Manfred Hiebl has placed everything known in Germany on the internet. Link: http://www.manfred-hiebl.de/mittelalter-genealogie/karolinger_ostfr...
Kind regards Everard.

Oda of Saxony Queen of Lorraine
---------------------- Countess in Metzgau
875 / 80-2.7. after 952
Eldest daughter of Duke Otto the Illustrious of Saxony and BABENBERGERIN Hadwig , daughter of Count Heinrich; Sister of King HEINRICH I.

G locker Winfrid: page 265
**************
"The relatives of the Ottonians and their importance in politics"

III, 4 Oda
-------------
* c 875/80, + after 952 probably on VII. 2

a) oo 897 III 27 / VI 13 Zwentibold, illegitimate son of King ARNULF ("von Kärnten")
* 870/71, + 900 VIII 13

b) oo 900 EndeGerhard, Graf, brother of Matfreds
+ 910 VI 22

As the daughter of Duke Otto the Illustrious, Oda cannot be proven by any clear source evidence. But we know from the Vita Mathilis antiquior c.1, SS X 575 that Otto the Illustrious and his wife Hadwig also had daughters. The identification of the at Regino a. 897, p. 145, as the father of that Oda who married King Zwentibold , called "Otto's comes" with Otto the illustrious , Scheid, Origines Guelficae, Vol. 4, p. 385, for example, already carried out. This identification can be supported by D Zwentibold 22, a document that was drawn up for the Essen monastery on the intervention of Odas and "comes Otto" , since the OTTONEN's close ties to the Essen monastery are attested for the 10th century. However, it is not clear whether these contacts go back to the second half of the 9th century; see. on this (positive) Zimmermann, Münster p. 40, and on the other hand (skeptical) Althoff, Adelsfamilien p. 137 with note 18. DO I. 159 in any case assures that Otto the Illustrious donated the Hof Beek to the Essen monastery. The identification of King Zwentibold's wife with a daughter of Duke Otto the Illustrious can be regarded as certain; see. on this Schieffer, Lande p. 25, Hauck, Ottonen p. 42 and 44 f., as well as Hlawitschka, Beginnings p. 59 f., who has compiled the source references ibid.
In DO I. 159 of 952 XII 30, mentioned above, OTTO I. mentions an "amitia Uota "; this document is thus the last testimony of the Oda . Werner VI, 22 refers to the entry in the Hildesheim necrology "VI. Non. Iulii Oda regina , soror nostra", which Dümmler, vol. 3, p. 455, note 2, referred to Zwentibold's wife, and keeps it undoubtedly for the day of death of Oda , although one could also think of Oda , the wife of Emperor ARNULFS VON KÄRNTEN , whose date of death is otherwise unknown. Hucke, Count p. 69, relates this Hildesheim entry to Oda , daughter of Ida von Elsdorf, who was married to the Russian Grand Duke Svyatoslaw .
The documents for Zwentibold's year of birth are compiled for BM² 1955c, those for the date of death for BM² 1983c; on Zwentibold cf. otherwise Werner VI, 22.
The marriage of Oda with Count Gerhard from the MATFRIEDINGER family at the end of Zwentibold's year of death testifies to Regino a. 900, p. 148.
The date of Gerhard's death is found in Hlawitschka, Beginnings p. 76, note 20, who informs us in detail about Gerhard's family, the MATFRIEDINGER .

H lawitschka Eduard: page 16,164
*****************
"Lotharingia and the empire on the threshold of German history"
King Zwentibold's certificate for the Essen monastery and his stay in Essen itself (June 4, 898; MG DD Zwentibold page 58ff. No. 22) are explained by Zwentibold's relationship with Otto the illustrious of Saxony , which in 897 resulted from the marriage between Zwentibold and Otto's daughter Oda , and the fact that Essen was a monastery of the Otto family. (For the origin of Odas see in future my genealogical investigation mentioned in the foreword).
The events cannot happen later than February 897, as Zwentibold sent messengers to his father, who was then in Bavaria, after this Trierzug, and finally Arnulfi hortatu wooed Otto the illustrious daughter, with the wedding already after Easter (March 27, 897 ) took place.

H lawitschka, Eduard: Pages 58-61
******************
"The beginnings of the House of Habsburg-Lothringen. Genealogical studies of the history of Lorraine and the empire in the 9th, 10th and 11th centuries"

But in what way should Uda be derived from the LIUDOLFINGERS ? Excellent reference can be found in a diploma from OTTOS I dated August 28, 960, in which he mentions larger property in and around Deventer in Hamaland and Tongeren , which Vda nostra nepta legitime hereditando permisit to him. Eight years earlier, on December 30, 952, his property only located in Deventer was returned to his amita Uota (MG DD Otto I page 241 no. 159). Both OTTOS documents - the one from the year 960 as well as the one from the year 956 - are well preserved, so that the names of both relatives - here nepta , there amita - cannot be interpreted. The aunt, amita , OTTOS I. is now not unknown. Namely, by Regino von Prüm communicating that King Zwentibold of Lorraine when choosing his spouse in 897 on the one hand on the advice of his father ARNULF VON KÄRNTEN ad Ottonem comitem missum dirigit, cuius filiam nomine Odam in coniugium exposcit , and on the other hand King Zwentibold is visiting Essen in 898 and in a certificate issued at the same time for the monastery there, later known as the Ottonian house monastery, coniunx nostra Oota nec non et venerabilis comes Otto intervened and finally OTTO THE GREAT 947 just this monastery Essen the ab avo nostro Ottone duce (= Otto the illustrious) It is clear that Zwentibold had married a daughter of Otto the Illustrious of Saxony and sister of the later German King HEINRICH I in 897.
The amita Uota OTTOS I was the widow of King Zwentibold , of whom it is moreover certain that she was brought home shortly after Zwentibold's death (900) by Count Gerhard , one of the toughest opponents of this ruler [Regino, Chron. Ad 900, page 148 : Eodem anno Gerardus comes Odam uxorem eiusdem Zuendibolch regis sibi in matrimonium copulat. -See. also Annales Aureaevallenses, MG SS XVI page 682; on this E. Dümmler, Gesch. d. Ostfr.Reiches III² page 503f. - In H. Decker-Hauff, Die Ottonen und Schwaben, in: Zeitschr. f. Württemberg. Landesgeschichte 14 (1955) page 264 and plate II after page 280, the opinion is held that Oda was not married by MATFRIEDINGER Gerhard , but by KONRADINER Gebhard (+ 910). This completely contradicts the above source statement!]. Deventer etc. could have been the Wittum bestowed on her by Zwentibold . Since one now finds an amita OTTUS THE GREAT , Uota , and also his neptis Vda named in one and the same place, whereby the neptis seems to be in the direct inheritance of the amita and can therefore be considered to be their direct physical heir, it is easily possible - especially since no other noble lady of this name is known in Lorraine at this time - to identify the neptis Vda with the wife of Gozlin's Uda. One can therefore probably consider the LIUDOLFINGER Uota as the mother of Gozlin's wife Uda / Vda. It is well known that Uota's three-year marriage to King Zwentibold resulted in two daughters: Benedicta and Caecilia ; they came to the Süsteren monastery and later became both abbesses there. The short period of Uota's first marriage and the fact that both Zwentibold daughters were sent to the monastery now suggests that Gozlin's wife Uda emerged from Uota's second marriage to Count Gerhard . This is confirmed by the fact that the Gozlin wife Uda had an inheritance in Frisingen (canton Esch, Luxembourg), whereby her parents are proven as landowners in the area in which Count Gerhard , who married the Zwentibold widow, as his brother Matfried also performed primarily.

27.3.897
1. oo Zwentibold King of Lorraine
870 / 71-13.8.900

900
2. oo Gerhard Graf in Metzgau
870-22.6.910

Children:
1. Marriage

Cäcilia Abbess of Süsteren
-17.8.

Benedikta Abbess of Süsteren
-17.8.

2. marriage

Adalhard
-

Wigfried Archbishop of Cologne (924-953)
ca 901-9.7.953

Uda
905-10.4.963

930
oo Gozelo Graf in Bidgau
910-19.10.942

Gottfried Pfalzgraf
ca 905-1.6. after 949

Literature:
-----------
A lthoff Gerd: The Ottonians. Royal rule without a state. W. Kohlhammer GmbH Stuttgart Berlin Cologne 2000, page 22 - B eumann, Helmut: Die Ottonen. Verlag W. Kohlhammer Stuttgart Berlin Cologne, page 23-25 ​​- D iwald Helmut: Heinrich der Erste. The establishment of the German Empire. Gustav Lübbe Verlag GmbH, Bergisch Gladbach 1987, page 111,356 - D ümmler Ernst: The chronicle of the abbot Regino von Prüm. Verlag der Dykschen Buchhandlung Leipzig Page 109,114 - Dümmler Ernst: History of the East Franconian Empire. Verlag von Duncker and Humblot Berlin 1865 Volume II Page 454,502,537 - G locker Winfrid: The relatives of the Ottonians and their importance in politics. Böhlau Verlag Cologne Vienna 1989 III, 4 page 265,276 - H lawitschka, Eduard: The beginnings of the House of Habsburg-Lothringen. Genealogical studies of the history of Lorraine and the Empire in the 9th, 10th centuries and 11th century, Saarbrücken 1969, pages 58-61,64,69,70,73,75-77,128,138,145,146,155 - H lawitschka Eduard: Lotharingia and the empire on the threshold of German history. Anton Hiersemann Stuttgart 1968, page 16,164,188 - H lawitschka, Eduard: Investigations into the change of throne in the first half of the 11th century and the nobility history of southern Germany At the same time clarifying research on "Kuno von Öhningen", Jan Thorbecke Verlag Sigmaringen 1987, page 26.40.94 - Sch ieffer Rudolf: Die Karolinger. W. Kohlhammer GmbH Stuttgart Berlin Cologne 1992, page 193 - Sch nith Karl Rudolf: Medieval rulers in life pictures. From the Carolingians to the Hohenstaufen. Verlag Styria Graz Vienna Cologne 1990, page 89,111,113 - Sch ulze, Hans K .: The Reich and the Germans. Hegemonic empire. Ottonen and Salier. Siedler Verlag, page 127,136,139 - Werner Karl Ferdinand: The origins of France up to the year 1000. Deutscher Taschenbuch Verlag GmbH & Co. KG, Munich 1995, page 476 -

So, your thoughts on the correct dates?

I think, when we have read all the sources, that 877 is a lot more probable for her birth year than 884. Even in the 9th century, girls weren't married at age 13 to have 3 children by the time they were 16.

Her second husband is mentioned twice.
Gerhard I, count of Metz
and
https://www.geni.com/people/Gérard-II-duc-de-Lorraine/6000000080003...
are obviously the same persons (Just I and II). Shouldn't the profiles be merged?

877

No not the same person - Gerhard, Duke of Lotharingia shouldn't be married to Oda at all

They died on the same day...

On Wikipedia (all languages) we find that Gerard I died on 22/6/910 in battle against a ‘Bavarian’ army. He married Zwentibold’s widow Oda in 900.
He was count of Metz in Lotharingia.

Gérard II or Gebhard died on 22/6/910 in battle against the Magyars in Augsburg, which is in the Schwabish part of Bavaria and he married Hida or Ida. (No parents mentioned)
He was Duke of Lotharingia (capital:Metz)

So, did they both die in the same battle?
What do you think about it?

Medlands is by far not complete enough to solve the problem..

Medlands is pretty clear that they are two different men, as you say they possibly died in the same battle.

Well, both profiles have separate entries on Medlands. But both stories mention a death in battle on the same day, one against the Bavarians, another one against the Hungarians (in what is now Bavaria). There should be at least some doubt about this inconsistency.

Medlands says about Gerhard I: (Gerard I)
3. GERHARD ([870/75][801]-killed in battle 22 Jun 910). The De Rebus Treverensibus sæculi VIII-X Libellus names two brothers "Gerardus et Meffridus" specifying that Gerhard married Oda, widow of King Zwentibold[802]. Regino records that in 897 "Stephanus, Odacar, Gerardus et Matfridus comites" had their honours confiscated, and the reconciliation of "Stephanus, Gerhardus et Matfridus" with King Zwentibold soon after[803]. The reconciliation was short-lived, as Regino specifies that "Zuantibold" was killed in battle "900 Id Aug" by "comitibus Stephano, Gerardo et Matfriedo circa Mosam"[804]. Regino records that "Chuonradus comes" sent "filium suum Chuonradum" against "Gerardum et fratrem eius Matfridum" in 906[805]. The Annales Laubecenses record that "Gebehardum ducem et Liutfredum" were killed in battle against the Bavarians in 910[806]. m (after 13 Aug 900) as her second husband, ODA, widow of ZWENTIBOLD King of Lotharingia [Carolingian], daughter of OTTO "des Erlauchten" Duke of Saxony & his wife Hedwig ([884][807]-[2 Jul] after 952). Regino records that "Gerhard comes" married "Odam uxorem Zuendiboldi regis" after killing her first husband in battle in 900[808]. "Otto…rex" confirmed the donation of property "in pago…Hamalant in comitatu Vuigmanni" to St Moritz at Magdeburg by "nostra amita…Uota" by charter dated 30 Dec 952[809]. Jackman speculates[810] that she married thirdly Eberhard Graf im Oberlahngau, Pfalzgraf]. Gerhard & his wife had four children:

Medlands says about Gebhard : ('Gérard II duc de Lorraine')

GEBHARD, son of [UDO Graf im Lahngau [Konradiner] & his wife [Judith [Welf]] (-killed in battle near Augsburg [22] Jun 910). Regino records the war in 902 between "Adalbertus cum fratribus Adalhardo et Heinrico" against "Eberhardum et Gebehardum et Rodulfum fratres", specifying that "postmodum iussu Gebehardi decollatus est"[81]. Regino names "Chuonradus senior [et] frater eius Gebehardus", specifying that Gebhard "in Weidereiba poterat"[82]. Duke of Lotharingia: "Hludowicus…rex" confirmed privileges to Kloster St Gallen by charter dated 24 Jun 903 in which among "fidelium nostrum" was listed "…Kebehart dux regni quod a multis Hlotharii dicitur…"[83]. "Hludowicus…rex" confirmed an exchange of properties between Kloster Fulda and Kloster Echternach after consulting "fidelium nostrorum comitum vero Kebeharti, Liutpoldi, Burcharti, Eginonis, Liutfredi, Iringi et Cunpoldi" by charter dated 19 Mar 907[84]. Regino records the death of "Gebeardus comes" fighting the Hungarians[85].

On Rodovid, there is another Gerard II of Metz born about 915: (in Dutch and French)
https://nl.rodovid.org/wk/Persoon:158025
https://fr.rodovid.org/wk/Personne:158025
There are also at least three different numberings for princes (counts, duke, kings) of Metz before the year 1000.

Interesting coincidence: The Annales Laubecenses record that "Gebehardum ducem et Liutfredum" were killed in battle against the Bavarians in 910 cfGerhard I, count of Metz

Regino records the death of "Gebeardus comes" fighting the Hungarians cf Gerhard, Duke of Lotharingia

Someone needs to contact Cawley for his opinion on whether this makes them the same man, or whether the death attribution on one of them is wrong.

Good catch.

Jason Scott Wills - thoughts?

We probably need to go back in the history of Lotharingia and Metz to see if it they cooincide:

Seems they might: After the Treaty of Verdun in 843, Metz became the capital of the Kingdom of Lotharingia

Need a Medievalist to come and give her opinion...

Anne Brannen , your thoughts?

Oh, hi!

as to dates for Oda -- "Even in the 9th century, girls weren't married at age 13 to have 3 children by the time they were 16." -- maybe not, but in 1455 Margaret Beafort married, at age 12, and was 7 months pregnant with the future Henry VII when her husband died the next year; she had her child at 13. Granted, it nearly killed her, and she had no others, But at any rate. There's that.

As to the Gerards -- the information on their deaths comes from two different primary sources, though both are found in the Monumenta Germaniæ Historica Scriptorum, which is what MedLands is using. My guess is that they are the same person, but I would contact MedLands.

as to Lotharigia and Metz -- Lotharingia gets divided up, and isn't called Lotharingia until 855, but certainly Metz is in it. But it doesn't look to me that the Count of Metz and the Duke of Lothingaria are the same person. They could both have died in the same battle.

On the French Wikipedia, we find a list of "royal counts" (comtes royaux) of Metz:
https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liste_des_comtes_de_Metz#:~:text=Il%2....

A "royal count" in Lotharingia was a count appointed by the French king. The Franch kings were constantly disputing Lotharingia with the German kings, especially after the death of Zwentibold in 900.

The French lists of counts also lead us to the "history of DUKES of Lotharingia"
https://www.lesfousdeterroirs.fr/blog/article/l-histoire-des-ducs-d...

We find the same Wikipedia lemma in Dutch (no English, German or other languages). No royal counts here, just "rulers" (heersers)

The royal count of Metz was the military leader appointed by the French king, and he was called "duke" by the German sources, for the first time in 903 (Gebhard) with no predecessors or successors as Duke:

see Medlands from MGH Diplomata L.d.K., 125: Kebehart dux regni quod a multis Hlotharii dicitur (903).
903 - 910 : Gebhard, comte de Wetterau et de Rheingau († 22 juin 910)2,
Saying that count Gebhard was "Duke".
There seems to be no line of dukes according to the German MGH sources . Gebhard was succeeded in 911 by count Rainier Longneck of Hainaut. (Hennegau-Henegouwen)

As for the exact meaning of the title of Duke in Lotharingia in the 9th and 10th century, there are some interesting publications (in German)

*Kienast W., Der Herzogstitel in Frankreich und Deutschland (9. bis 12. Jahrhundert) (München 1968)
*Mohr W., Geschichte des Herzogtums Lothringen (Saarbrücken 1976)
*Barth R., Der Herzog in Lotharingen im 10. Jahrhundert (Sigmaringen 1990)*

We find no mentions on Medlands & MGH that Gebhard was called "Gerard II",
Gerard I stands for the French sources, Gebhard for the German sources. They could be the same person. Of course that would mean that in both Medlands entries the list of his children was not complete. Any other opinions?

"Of course that would mean that in both Medlands entries the list of his children was not complete."

It would also mean that one of the sets of parents on Medlands is wrong.

According to this

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Rednitz

the Duke led the German armies against the Hungarians, and the Bavarians were on his side, as you'd expect. But Medlands cites a chronicle saying the duke died in battle against the Bavarians.

The MedLands page for the Konradiner, Gebhard son of Udo

http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/FRANCONIA.htm#Gerharddied910

starts by telling us that Adalhard and his brothers fought Eberhard and his brothers (Konradiners) in 902, Eberhard dying in the battle and Gebhard being beheaded soon afterwards.

It then proceeds on the basis that this is flat wrong (without saying so)..

What I'm not seeing is why people think it was this Gebhard and not the other one (son of Adalhard) who was made Duke of Lorraine. This is the prevailing view, but the evidence is probably thin. And clearly the primary sources can't be totally reconciled and choices have to be made as to which statements to regard as mistakes.

Wise Words...

On the face of it, there were two Gebhards

- the Konradiner, son of Udo
- the count of Metz, supposed to have succeeded his father Adalhard in 890.

Question is, whether their life stories have been mixed up.

What we have is
(a) one of the Gebhards married Oda, the widowed Queen of Lorraine
(b) one of the Gebhards became Duke of Lorraine, for life only.

On the face of it, (b) is the natural consequence of (a), and (a) is the complete explanation of (b). In medieval custom, the widow's second husband would expect to take over the lands and powers of the first, but for life only - his kin wouldn't usually inherit. They might draw the line at crowning him king, but duke would do nicely.

That's if the two Gebhards are the same person. But somehow (a) and (b) have come to be disconnected by being assigned to two different Gebhards. This would imply an untold story of how the widowed Queen and her new husband were for some reason deprived of Lorraine and it was handed over to somebody else.

But if it was in fact the widowed Queen's second husband who became the Duke, then the sources are confused and we can't take anything at face value. And there's still the question of whether the man in question was the Konradiner or the count of Metz.

But it's all speculation. I don't know anything about these people.

There could be a political factor. The Count of Metz was French. His ancestors were Counts of Paris. Some later writers might have thought the Duke who fell leading the great German armies against the Hungarians ought to be a bit more German.

Sorry for my absence - I've just had a knee replacement. Another discussion here: https://www.geni.com/discussions/219951?msg=1422458 may or may not be pertinent. Right now I'm not concentrating well enough through the meds to sift them. Happy to be called back here if people come to a consensus on a way forward.

Brian Johnson - your thinking strikes me as very useful here, but I'm on blood thinners - so what do I know :-) :-)