Mabel de Cantelou - Help, sourcing needed

Anne Brannen If you have any insight for sources, Links are much appreciated.

The reference to Roger de Hovedene's Chronicle is from the preface -- Roger de Hovedene died in 1201, but the preface is written by William Stubbs (a name that all the medievalists recognize), in his 1870 edition of the text, and so can rightly contain material that occurred after Hovdene died -- nevertheless, any connection to Hawise de Gournay is not mentioned.

Here, in a history of the Gournays, Hawise de Longchamp's ancestry is unknown, though it's presumed the family is from Normandy -- https://www.google.com/books/edition/Recherches_historiques_sur_la_...

This history, which includes Robert de Gournay as married to Hawises de Longchamp, does not mention her family -- https://www.google.com/books/edition/Histoire_d_Ottar_jarl_pirate_n...

Nobody here is in Medlands -- too late. Though if you go back up to Walter de Cauntelo he IS in Medlands; neither his parents nor any children are known:

https://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/ENGLISHNOBILITYMEDIEVAL3.htm#_Toc2...

Am finding nothing but unsourced family web trees to back any of this up.

Thank you, Anne. I was just reading through the preface.

Medlands has this Gournay family (which needs work on Geni ) and identifies Hawise de Longchamps, parents unknown, as wife.

——

1.         THOMAS FitzWilliam of Harptree (-before 1213).  "Hathewisia de Gurneio" noted that "Alexander de Bidicumba" had sold “totam terram suam de Cliveware...quam Robertus de Gurneio pater meus ei...dedit” to “Thome filio Willelmi” by undated charter, witnessed by “...Matheo de Gurneio...”[1074]. 

m as her first husband, EVA [de Berkeley/de Gournay], daughter of ROBERT de Berkeley & his first wife Hawise de Gournay (-before 1213).  Stapleton names “Hawisia, daughter and heiress of Robert de Gurnay of Barrow in [Somerset]” as the first wife of Robert FitzHarding and mother of his daughter “Eva de Gurnay”, but he does not cite the corresponding primary source[1075].  "Mauricius de Gant" paid a fine "loco Eve sororis sue…pro habenda terra q hereditarie eandem Evam…et Thom fil Willi quondam viri sui" in Gloucestershire and Somerset, dated 1213[1076].  King John confirmed "manerium de Barewe", which he had "in vita sua ex concessione Eve de Gornay sororis sue", to "Mauricio de Gant" by charter dated 28 Jul 1214[1077].  The name "de Gournay" applied to Eva could suggest that she only shared one parent with Maurice de Gant, presumably their mother, but this hypothesis appears disproved by the record quoted below which names Robert de Gournay as heir of Maurice de Gant.  She married secondly Roger de Peauton.  Stapleton names “Roger de Peauton” as second husband of Eva, adding that while married to him she confirmed her donation to Bermondsey monastery of the church of Inglishcombe which had earlier been donated by “Hawisia her grandmother, widow of Robert de Gurnay, and [by] Hawisia her own mother”, without citing the corresponding primary sources[1078]. 

Thomas & his wife had one child:

a)         ROBERT de Gournay (-[1269]).  The 1227 Pipe Roll records "Robertus de Gurnaco filius et hæres Thomæ de Harpetrie" and "Robertus de Gurnay hæres Evæ de Gurnay" making returns[1079].  Stapleton quotes (in translation) the donation by “Robert de Gurnay, son and heir of Eva de Gurnay” of the advowson of Inglishcombe church to Bermondsey monastery, for the souls of “Thomas my father, Eva my mother, Hawisia de Gurnay my grandmother”, dated 1227[1080].  "Robertus de Gurnay heres Mauricii de Gaunt" protested that “juris...in tribus hundredis de Beminstr, Hareclive et de Porbir” reverted to “Thomam de Berkel” after the death of Maurice, but his claim was rejected, dated 1230[1081].  His claim was presumably dismissed because these properties were the subject of the charter dated to the reign of King John under which “Maurice de Gant” granted “the three hundreds...Bedminster, Portbury and Hareclive” [in Somerset], which “Robert Fitzharding gave to Robert Juvenis his father”, to “Thomas de Berkeley” provided the grantor died without an heir[1082]. 

m HAWISE de Longchamp, daughter of ---.  Gurney names "Hawisa de Longchamp" as the wife of Robert de Gournay, commenting "of what family of Longchamp she was does not appear, but probably of the baronial family of that name seated at Wilton in Herefordshire”[1083]. 

Robert & his wife had one child: 

i)          ANSELM de Gournay (-before 28 Oct 1286).

http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/ENGLISHNOBILITYMEDIEVAL3.htm#_Toc38...

Is Maude’s Geni marriage to Maurice de Londres valid? Looks unlikely?

BTW it seems this Longchamps family Henry de Longchamp, of Wilton was of Wilton, but I don’t think which person Hawise was related to is found, or even speculated?

Hawise based on dates would be way down the Longchamps tree, more like in this generation

Maud de Longchamp, heiress of Wilton

Longchamp pedigree with chart on 2nd page:

https://www.kentarchaeology.org.uk/Research/Pub/ArchCant/Vol.036%20...

Mixup of different Henry Longchamps.

https://archive.org/details/archaeologiacant36kent/page/n82/mode/1up - easier to read.

There’s a Henry, brother of Hugh, d 1203 on the 4th Crusade married Maude

There’s a Henry, son of Hugh & Emma St Leger, d 1212, m Maud, sister of William Cantelow, father of Henry, d 1237, father of Maud m Reynold de Grey. Wilton passed then into the Greys, it looked like.

Do we agree with this chart and should adjust accordingly?

Separated Mabel de Londres from not her known sister Maud de Cantelou

Ha!

Didn't check the de Gournays on Medlands -- good work.

Yes, some conflation of names.

I would accept the pedigree from the Kent Archaelogical Society -- some citations, as is usual with works from this time; considered reliable at the time; no problem with it now, as far as I know.

So the problem is identifying which William de Cantelou was Maud’s sister. medlands does not give the Stewart William any sisters

http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/ENGLISHNOBILITYMEDIEVAL3.htm#Willia...

But surely it has to be this one?

William de Cantilupe, 1st feudal Baron of Eaton Bray

This is interesting. The Wikipedia article suggests an intervening daughter generation for Maud, heiress of Wilton, who married Reynold de Grey.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reginald_de_Grey,_1st_Baron_Grey_de_W...

Reginald acquired Wilton barony through his marriage to the heiress, Matilda Cantilupe before 1252, although at the time he was a minor under the tutelage of his father, John de Grey.[1]

Lord de Grey married Maud, daughter and heir of William FitzHugh, by Hawys, daughter and heir of Henry de Longchamp, of Wilton Castle, co. Hereford, by whom he inherited a large estate in the county. Lord de Grey died on 5 April 1308, leaving:

John Grey, 2nd Baron Grey de Wilton (c1268–28 October 1323)

1. Remfry, P.M., Wilton Castle (Malvern, 1999)

“ Matilda de Grey, née de Cantilupe, stood up in court in 1292 and lied through her teeth to King Edward I of England that the castle had been built by her Longchamp ancestors in the days of Edward the Confessor (1042–66). In fact, the castle could not have been built before 1154 and certainly the 'barony' never held the Marcher Lord rights Lady Matilda ”

From the profile of Maud de Longchamp, heiress of Wilton

Will Chapman (Vol. Curator) - can we go ahead and merge into Maud de Longchamp, heiress of Wilton ? He only had one wife.

I’m comfortable that Maud de Cantelou has the correct father although she’s not in Medlands. She was vetted in a Cantelou pedigree compiled by John Ravilious, Ive uploaded the the email from soc.gen.med

https://www.geni.com/documents/view?doc_id=6000000147230669923

And William de Cantelou is described as uncle of Henry Longchamp, of Wilton in https://www.geni.com/documents/view?doc_id=6000000147233558943

Maud de Longchamp, heiress of Wilton Is alternately seen as daughter of Hawise de Longchamp

I propose that Hawise not a daughter Longchamp but a widow Lomgchamp, and in fact the same person as Hawise de Longchamp the widow who married Morgan ap Hywel, lord of Caerleon

This would, I think, resolve some discrepancies.

Any objections to merging Hawise?

Nope.

“Karylon” is, I am very sure, Caerleon.

It gets even better. Just found this:

===Hawise Widow of Henry de Longchamp of Wilton

https://groups.google.com/g/soc.genealogy.medieval/c/ZaKi8O9QYFA/m/...

John Watson, Apr 12, 2011, 5:54:38 PM

Hi all,

I am wondering if anyone can help me figure out who this lady was.

Henry de Longchamp of Wilton, Herefordshire died before 31 July 1237, when the bishop of Worcester was granted the custody of his lands and heir during the minority of the heir [1]. Henry's heir was his daughter Maud, who subsequently married Sir Reynold de Grey, ancestor of the family of Grey of Wilton [2]. In December 1230, Henry de Longchamp had given 50 marks to having to wife Joan, who was the wife of Thomas of Birkin [3]. Whether Joan actually married him is not clear, although most pedigrees of the Longchamp family make Joan the mother of Maud de Longchamp. However, when Henry de Longchamp died, he left a widow named Hawise, who may have been the mother of Maud.

On 23 March 1238, Hawise late the wife of Henry de Longo Campo had licence to marry Morgan de Karlyon [4]. Morgan de Caerleon (Morgan ap Hywel) died, apparently childless, before 15 March 1248 [5].

Hawise, who continued to use the name of Longchamp, next appears in records in the ecclesiastical court of Canterbury in 1254, apparently trying to obtain a divorce from Henry de Sudbury? [Subbor'/ Subbur'] [6]. She was unsuccessful in obtaining a divorce, but did not accept the court's decision and was subsequently excommunicated. The sentence of excommunication was later suspended on 6 December 1254 when she appealed against the verdict [7]. How this case turned out is not stated.

Whether she was divorced, or whether Henry died, I don't know, but '''Hawise later turns up again in 1269 as the widow of Robert de Gurney [Gurnay / Gournay] of Beverstone, Gloucestershire'''. On 26 May 1269 William Ernaldi was granted the marriage of Hawise de Longo Campo, late the wife of Robert Curtenay [Gurnay], tenant in chief, or of any fine she may make with the king for the marriage or the forfeiture due if she marry without the licence of him or the said William [8]. On 15 June 1269 the king granted her reasonable dower from Robert's lands [9]. Hawise is given as the mother of Robert's heir Anselm in all pedigrees of the Gurney family, but this is not possible. Anselm was of full age in 1269, when the king granted him the lands of Robert his father [10], so was born before 1249. As can be seen above, Hawise was married to Morgan ap Hywel at this time.

So, does any one have any idea who this much married lady might be?

Regards,

John

References.
* 1. Calendar of Patent Rolls, Henry 3, Vol. 3, p. 190
* 2. Complete Peerage, Vol. 6, p. 173
* 3. Calendar of Fine Rolls, 15 Henry III, No. 58
* 4. Calendar of Patent Rolls, Henry 3, Vol. 3, p. 214
* 5. David Crouch, ‘Iorwerth ab Owain (d. 1175x84)’, Oxford Dictionary
* of National Biography, Oxford University Press, 2004
* 6. Calendar of Close Rolls, Henry III: volume 8: 1253-1254 (1929), pp.
* 101, 309
* 7. Special Collections: Ancient Petitions, SC 8/195/9735
* 8. Calendar of Patent Rolls, Henry 3, Vol. 6, p. 346
* 9. Calendar of Close Rolls, Henry III: volume 14: 1268-1272 (1938),
* pp. 55-61
* 10. Calendar of Fine Rolls, 53 Henry III, No. 394

So she’s this Hawise. Hawise de Longchamp

And not the daughter of Maud de Cantelou

Isn’t there where we started? :)

Erica Howton

Erica You asked 'Can we go ahead and merge into Maud de Longchamp, heiress of Wilton ? He only had one wife.'

Although the subject is beyond my historical knowledge, your logic & evidence looks good to me. If you wish please take over the Curatorship - I'm 83 next month and its time I passed MPs on that sit in critical historic positions.

Cheers

Will

Anne Brannen Do we have a Pilgrim project?

https://www.bl.uk/collection-items/santiago-14th-century-pilgrim-tr...

It looks like Henry Longchamp, of Wilton died on pilgrimage. Which strikes me as weird - he would have been a new husband - father, lord of his manor, & it’s a long way to Spain. What reasons could there have been?

Did I get the name right now on Morgan ap Hywel, lord of Caerleon? Apparently no issue, but do you know his family?

There is no Hawise married to a Morgan ap Hywel (and Morgan ap Hywel, without anything else, would be impossible to find -- too many. I might look anyway. But I don't expect to find.)

The name isn't exactly wrong, but it's mixing Welsh and French -- I myself would write Morgan ap Hywel o Caerleon.

The pilgrimage to Santiago was one of the most popular -- hard to say what reasons there might have been. Wish I knew.

Good God, I found him.

Hawise isn't mentioned, is why I couldn't find her.

Here is the reference --

https://cadair.aber.ac.uk/dspace/bitstream/handle/2160/5268/rhydder...

But here, he is not childless. It's down at the bottom of the page, on the left -- Morgan, the son of Hywel Caerllion (yet another spelling). He dies in 1249; his daughter Gwerfyl marries her first cousin Gruffudd.

What is of great interest to me here is that Bartrum is very careful about including women, when known, in his compilation.

So the way I am reading this is:

Morgan had a daughter, by whom we do not know. The Welsh genealogies keep that written down.

Hawise married him but had no children with him. She's Anglo-Norman; with no children, the Welsh genealogies had no need to mention her.

If Bartrum had seen her in them, he would have included her.

Oh, and conversely, the Anglo-Norman genealogies didn't care about a Welsh daughter by somebody nobody knew the name of.

This is fascinating. We have Pilgrims (did he run away from his new wife?) new Welsh tree connection, and a much married lady of no origins. Except she probably wasn’t Welsh.

I’m trying now to sort the de Londres tree Mabel de Londres Is stuck onto. There are time travelers and a confusion of Maurice de Londreses. Anything more on the Welsh side is much appreciated.

Wait - here’s his Wiki page

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morgan_ap_Hywel

Wolcott’s page disputing Cadair

http://www.ancientwalesstudies.org/id214.html

Gwerfyl verch Morgan Needs looking at, I think.

Ok!

Did look.

The Wikipedia page for Morgan ap Hywel gives Gwerfyl as a daughter. The citations take us to "The Acts of Welsh Rulers," published by the University of Wales press in 2005, second edition 2010, edited by Huw Pryce. That's a solid scholarly work, but not all details even in such volumes pan out.

therefore we go to the citation itself, to see what it cites for its sources for the information.

There are citations, several. They are to: Brut y Twywsowyon (The Chronicle of Princes), two manuscripts, Peniarth 20, and The Red Book of Hergest. Fair enough, contemporary histories. Also the editor cites The Calendar of Inquisitions Post Mortem, which is a collection of contemporary documents. And as well, a scholarly volume written by Jenkyn Beverley Smith, a major Welsh historian.

Smith's volume is available on Google Books, but it's $68 and I do not have that.

https://books.google.com/books?id=A2auBwAAQBAJ&printsec=frontco...

And alas neither the pages nor the note we need is available without coughing up money.

Here is the Calendar of Inquisitions Post Mortem, which has the Maredudd ap Gruffudd case, citing ""Wyrvil" -- Gwerful -- as his ancestress -- https://archive.org/details/cu31924011387804/page/n217/mode/2up -- it's number 289.

Peniarth 20 is available online for about $70 -- nope. But there is a translation which one can view if one has JSTOR access, which, since I have retired, I do not. Darn. https://www.jstor.org/stable/557470?seq=1

AAAAND pieces of the Red Book of Hergest are available, translated, online, but it's the Triads, not the Chronicle.

So!

Wolcott has very good points, but I'd rather be able to actually see things before cutting Gwerfyl off.

My solution at this point would be to add the problems into the Overview and the curator's note.