Elizabeth McDonald Ramsay - The elusive Elizabeth and or Susan Ramsay / Ramsey McDonald

Elizabeth Ramsay McDonald ( PUTATIVE PROFILE - NOT CONFIRMED YET!)

Ramsay McDonald

According to the Family Tree in the family bible of Hendrik McDonald b9 and Anna Maria Magrietha Dreyer, Elizabeth Ramsay was married to George 1827 Prog's grandfather, thus it was his grand mother. So this profile relationship can be changed now with this new confirmed information.

Very excited about this!

Hi Nantes - just a quick remark again. Why is it then, that George McD * 1827 's pic and the E Ramsay pic, were placed next to each, other on Rita's cd? Your opinion plz? What do you think Pat? Would than not maybe point to them, as maybe being a couple? In other word she was maybe his 1st wife? (I know we then still have the ''problem'' wording on the marriage certif with Magdalene Elizabeth Heath - as him being a ''jongman'', thus not married or widowed )'' . Could that be true - he was already 33 by then! I think there is maybe still work to be done here? Nantes - kindly scan and put a copy of Hendrik McD's Bible's written data , on Geni, if you have not already done so plz. Can't remember if I have seen it? Would love to hear your opinions! Thnxs in advance. Wilma

Thnx for the pic of Hendrik's Bible, Nantes. I have seen it. Appreciate.

I am going to try again:

Note: BIG sanity check here:

We need to make sure of the placement of the profile of Elizabeth Ramsay, in this generation here, as the wife of this George.

Is there maybe an option of the name Susan, connected to Elizabeth Ramsay , either as a nickname or birth name - and we just don't know about it?

Also - is the spelling Ramsay or Ramsey?

This elusive Elizabeth Ramsay, is not yet confirmed by any docs. I have now searched to no avail and have hit a solid brick wall. Is there anyone that can confirm her?

I could only find her mentioned on Natasha McDonald's myheritage site and there, she is placed as the wife - of George *1827. (Awaiting Natasha's response.) This confirms the verbal tradition.

This cute picture of Elizabeth Ramsay, was given to me by my mother in law and it is also the same one that I got from Rita Hoffmeyer. According to my mother in law and Rita, Elizabeth Ramsay was apparently never in South Africa?

If the verbal tradition is correct, then it could either mean that Elizabeth has either maybe have died in Sctoland, or they never were really formally married, or that they got divorced and that only George came from Scotland, or that he just did not mention her as a wife, for whatever reason, on his marriage certificate to M E Heath. Not sure!

We also have the indication on Rita'c CD (where she was placed next to George McD's *1827 pic - and this might be pointing to the fact that she was actually possibly his 1st wife, before he got married to M E Heath?

NB - This marriage between Elizabeth and George *1827 has thus not been confirmed by docs yet, but is strongly supported by the verbal tradition. (Currently Elizabeth is not placed with George *1827 but with another George McD higher up and I think that placement in that generation is wrong.)

Problem: We also have the confusing sentence - that George was a young man at the ripe old age of 33, when he got married as a young man to M E Heath? Can it be possible that he was that old and not having had a wife already? Or - could this maybe just be a recording mistake?

Problem: The written inscription in Hendrik McD's (* 1886) Bible - says that Elizabeth Rassay was the grootmoeder = ouma = grandmother and not ouma grootjie = great grand mother, - which sort of supports the verbal tradition of her being the grandmother of George*1865 (Jors nickname) There is also a child of Hendrik McD *1886 , being named Ramsay McDonald - which I find very notable. Why would anyone randomly name a child Ramsay, if that is not somehow significant, in pointing to an ancestor?

Also - here comes another BIG saniity check here: Problem: The verbal tradition also mentions that she was the grandmother, (or just maybe) - the g grandmother of George *1865. (nickname Jors.) But this seems weird and confusing - since it is just one generation up, then rather making her his mother, that was probably married to George *1827. !!!??? ARGH!!! Could the verbal tradition be totally off then in naming her most probably, the grandmother?

Another problem: The man John Henry McD*1862 (which is recorded as being the same man as John Hendrick McD * 1862 , as well as being the same man as Jan Hendrick) and was according to verbal tradition, also most probably being called by his nickname Jack-John Henry, or just Jack - has also a direct effect, on the placement of this Elizabeth Ramsay, as being the mother of Jack as is stated on his death notice!!! Maybe Elizabeth had another name Susan as well, but she was known just as Elizabeth, according to verbal tradition? This idea would then maybe explain why I think there is maybe an extra wrongly placed generation currently on Geni for a Jack and Susan McD?

If this is true - it might also maybe point to the fact that Elizabeth Ramsay was indeed maybe the elusive 1st wife of George *1827 and then one or more generation/s must obviously be deleted.

This all still makes me wonder, where she needs to be placed.

Can you kindly help us to untangle this haystack and help us to solve this intricate riddle. It is driving me nuts!!! Your opinions on this please? Much appreciated! WB

Ok dear all -

A little breakthrough:

I just realized that the name of Ramsay McDonald, the son of Hendrik McDonald b9 ( nickname Liek, or Luuk, or Liekie ) * 1886, was recorded as Ramsay on his marriage certificate. So we can then most probably assume that Elizabeth's surname was the same as him ie Ramsay and not Ramsey? Your opinion please?

as his* - typo sorry!

I am pulling my hair out - I cannot find anything on her!!!!

@ John Michael McDonald

I found this information on MH - a census dating back to 1861.

Problem is SV George was already in SA at that point in time.

https://www.myheritage.com/research/record-10978-1739619-/elizabeth...

Now whats interesting about this, is she is listed as married to a George McDonald who was born circa 1822 in India.

https://www.myheritage.com/research/record-10978-1739621-/george-mc...

Theres also a son called George as well but he was born in 1861 when SV was already in SA. This is possibly where the confusion comes in about being a wife to SV George McDonald.

Thnx dear John Michael - will study this .... and the search goes on!

Interesting exact same photo used for this Elizabeth Ramsay

On records searched yesterday I found Ramsay ,Ramsey ,Ramsy and Ramsuy used by same families irrespective .

Thnx Phillipp. Yep - not easy!

Still the question: Where / how does she fit in:
This is still coming up in my mind:
According to the Family Tree in the family bible of Hendrik McDonald b9 and Anna Maria Magrietha Dreyer, Elizabeth Ramsay was married to George 1827 Prog's grandfather, thus it was his grand mother. So this profile relationship can be changed now with this new confirmed information. - according to Nantes.
I have now been told by 5 McD family members ie Lien McD , Mac McD , his brother Henry McD Jeanette Fourie Porgieter McD, and my grandmother Anna Basson - that she was absolutely connected to the McDonalds and they all put her in as either the grandmother or g great gmother. (but not the wife of SV George though!) These family embers all have the same picture!

family members*

As grandmother of someone born 1827 the possibility of a photograph of her existing very slim; her likely d.o.b. then before 1790
Grt grandmother would be d.o.b. before 1770.
Where did the picture originate from ; 5 or 6 copies ?
Clothes in photograph late Victorian, worn after Prince Albert died 1861.
Just had different family mother Charlotte on 6 baptisms 1860's and on marriage to father and on her and his DN's yet 2 children have mother as Mary on their DN's.

So Elizabeth and Susan could be the same person.

Ok good - we are getting closer! This is so difficult and so addictive !

So exsited : just received this from Henry McDonald . He us the tein if Mac McD. “My dad always talked about Grandma Ramsay. I think she was a girl Ramsay and was the first wife of our great-grandfather and therefore our real great-grandmother who as far as I know passed away on Kimberley. Great-grandfather was apparently a doctor on the diamond fields and apparently had a large number of claims on Kimberley. When the great-grandmother died, he remarried to a Harmse widow and apparently sold his claims to Barney Barnato. He then moved to Koster - Derby area where he had a lot of farms. When he died, the Harmse widow and her children inherited all the farms and his own children inherited the loose property. They were three brothers, our grandfather George, Uncle Thomas who was senator for Middelburg and Uncle Jack who was actually John Henry”

Excited* 🧐

Sorry previous typos!
Should read : He - John Henry McD (nickname = Henry), - is the twin of Hermanus Lukas McD.
(nickname = Mac the sculptor.) These two McD twins, are the only living children of Nakkie and John Henry McD - the geologist. In his whatssapp message to me just now, Henry talks about the fact that Elizabeth was in RSA! I'll try to research the Barney Barnato story/ connection and the Harmse widow as well as the Doctor connection to the g g grandfather! Good to get the confirmation here about Uncle Jack = actually John Henry McD and Thomas McD = the Senator in Middelburg! We are getting closer I think!

Who was Widow Harmse then?
According to this Ramsay = Heath
Widow Harmse = Yzelle

Maybe wrong family here mixed up ?

Phillip - I have no clue who widow Harmse was! Research needed.
I do not think E Ramsay could have been Heath though? Why do you think that ?
Also don't think Yzelle = widow Harmse? Why do you think that?

Wilma -- the story completely off kilter.

2 brothers and one half brother.
4 wives suddenly for George McDonald.?
Have another Dr William Mcdonald owned claims in Kimberley . Plus another wealthy George McDonald part of Kimberley diamonds as well.

When did Wfe Yselle die again ?

Last wife died 1947 so no Widow Harmse . This sounds like a made up story--- sorry 😞

Goerge McDonald wife ?
His wife Widow Harmse died and 3 sons inherited the loose property?

When did George McDonald father of Thomas / Thos McDonald marry Widow Harmse ?

Read it again

Will look again at it with fresh eyes tom. Thanks for your kind input! Appreciate.