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Thomas Keene, II - UNPROVEN CLAIM THOMAS KEENE AND ELIZABETH GOSNOLD ARE HIS PARENTS

Started by Private User on Thursday, April 16, 2020
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Researchers of this family line have tried to prove that the Thomas Keene on Kent Island was the son of Thomas Keene and Elizabeth Gosnold, who was the daughter of Robert Gosnold III, but have not been able to prove the connection.

It is has been proven that there was a Thomas Keene that was the son of Thomas Keene and Elizabeth Gosnold and such a person would have been a cousin of the Bartholomew Gosnold at Jamestown. However, there is no proof that the fellow on Kent Island is the same person as this Thomas Keene

The problem has always been that other than the similarity of the names, there is no documentation that would indicate the two Thomas Keene males are the same person.

There were many Thomas Keene males of similar age in England at this time. There is no indication of the part of England that the Thomas Keene on Kent Island came from before he came to America. We know that he came from England, but he did not state a particular location.

There is no proof that the Thomas Keene that was the son of Elizabeth Gosnold ever traveled to America, much less that he was transported to Kent Island as a cooper. If it could be proved that the son of Elizabeth Gosnold was engaged in the trade of being a cooper in England that would at least provide some circumstantial evidence of a connection.

Another issue is that there does not appear to be any oral tradition in the family in England that their Thomas Keene went to America. The Thomas Keene in America never made any claim to having been descended from the Gosnold's of Otley Hall.

In the absence of a proof of the parents of the Kent Island Thomas Keene, no parents should be listed on Geni.

I am posting this to initiate a discussion concerning whether it is possible to document his parents. He is my 7th GGP and I would like nothing better than to prove the connection to Robert Gosnold III, but I have not found anyone who has put forth the documentation for this connection and many researchers have concluded that it may not be possible to document the connection.

Private User What is your opinion of this information: https://www.ancestry.com/interactive/48515/VAGleaningsEng-002960-15...

Thank you reading the discussion item and for the reference to the Will of Robert Gosnold III that shows he had a grandson named Thomas Keene.

I mention in the write-up above that such a person existed.

This item makes it less likely the Thomas Keene on Kent Island is the same person as the Thomas Keene that is Robert Gosnold III's grandson.

The will does not prove that this grandson is the person in America on Kent Island working as a cooper who must sign his name with an "X" to documents.

The grandson of Robert Gosnold would have been an educated person capable of signing his full name. Also it is unlikely that he would have been a tradesman who made barrel staves.

This has been the frustrating problem. There is a perfectly well documented person in England that can be traced to King Edward I (Longshanks) who is named Thomas Keene, but how do we prove the Thomas Keene on Kent Island is the same person as the person mentioned in this will?

Thomas Keene in America says that he was born in England but does not state what part of England or who his parents were and does not mention any connection to Otley Hall, the home of Robert Gosnold III. If he had it would prove the connection.

This is the crux of the problem. This is not the only Thomas Keene in all of England so you can not say this person is the same person as the Thomas Keene on Kent Island.

In the absence of proof connecting these two individuals we can not say they are the same person.

I also agree with the analysis that Thomas Keene's uncle Anthony Gosnold, who was the son of Robert Gosnold III and executor of his estate, did not go to Virginia and was not the Anthony Gosnold that was part of the Virginia Company.

This makes it unlikely that Thomas Keene the grandson of Robert Gosnold III ever left England. This is not the branch of the Gosnold family that sent sons to America.

If his uncle Anthony Gosnold had gone to Virginia and taken Thomas with him or the
Thomas Keene in America had associations with this Anthony Gosnold in America that could be used as a means of proving a connection.

Since uncle Anthony Gosnold did not go to Virginia and was not the Anthony Gosnold involved with the Virginia Company there is no means of creating a connection or reason for the Thomas Keene in Robert Gosnold's will to go to America.

Another avenue that has been explored is to try to connect his son William Keene to the family in England. These efforts have also drawn a blank. William Keene's grave had a great deal of information included in the stone capping his above ground grave. I have visited this grave. Unfortunately, none of the information on the stone connected William Keene to the Gosnold's in England - Robert Gosnold III would have been his great grandfather and Elizabeth Gosnold would be his grandmother if his father Thomas Keene was her son. Unfortunately there is no mention of her - another missed opportunity to prove a connection.

I am not saying that it is a 100% certainty that the American Thomas Keene is not Robert Gosnold III's grandson. I think it is highly unlikely that he is the same person, but I can not prove who the actual parents of Thomas Keene on Kent Island were and that is why I think no parents should be attached to him on Geni.

What I am saying is there is no proof that his parents were Thomas Keene and Elizabeth Gosnold.

I wish there was and I am hoping that some one finds proof of the connection.

I am interested in any sources that you can provide that have brought you to these conclusions. In order to expand this research, we should all be able to go over the sources and build on your research.

Private User please contribute to this existing discussion.

Also see a link from the profile:

"Thomas Keene & Mary Thorley - A Research Summary & Personal Narrative"

https://www.familysearch.org/tree/person/memories/GZ57-53T

Nice got a link that might help explain why Thomas is obvious the grandson of Robert Gosnold.

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1QCZICnj_keSmxHL2N_WcZUxdlxZWUX9...

In that explains a lot of important clues that might of been missed.

2. No Keene is listed at Otley in the 1636 “Able Men of Suffolk” so Thomas Keene mentioned in the will is no longer there (Re: Keene/Gosnold on Rootsweb November 21, 2002). Thomas Keene of Kent Island/Northumberland is documented as being in the Colonies at this time.

4. Thomas Keene of Kent Island/Northumberland County was granted 527 acres in Northumberland County for transporting people to the Virginia Colony (“Headrights”), including John Earle & wife. Sir John Earle (b. 1612) married Mary Symonds (b.1618) “before leaving across the sea”. Mary Symonds was the daughter of Thomas Symonds. Thomas Symonds was the son of Giles Symonds of Hillsbey. Richard Symonds of this family married Elnor Keene, possibly a relative of Thomas Keene of Thrandeston (father of Thomas Keene, grandson mentioned in the will of Robert III). Thomas Keene III (son of Thomas Keene of Kent Island/Northumberland County, VA) is the godfather of Francis Simonds.
Comment: Aside from the apparent family connections, keep in mind that Thomas Keene of Kent Island/Northumberland Co. is sponsoring the transportation of “noble” families from England.

This may help you with the problem for presentation on Geni. Of course, on private trees one may do as one wishes.

From noted working genealogist L. Mahler, who posts at soc.genealogy.medieval, which is an archived google group we turn to for the European and English ancestors of early American colonists:

https://groups.google.com/g/soc.genealogy.medieval/c/zVNMQ0h2-Dc/m/...

Its been stated before: The accepted royal descents for colonists can be found in the following sources: Roberts, Royal Descents of 500 Immigrants (some of which have since been eliminated); Weiss, Ancestral Roots of Certain American Colonists; Faris, Plantagenet Ancestry; and recently published royal descents in the noted periodicals.

Everything outside of these sources has failed.

If you look upthread of that discussion, you'll see a list of publications cited. I'll copy them into the profile:

https://groups.google.com/g/soc.genealogy.medieval/c/zVNMQ0h2-Dc./m...

Sources:

  • Fleet, Beverley, _Virginia Colonial Abstracts_, Vol. 2, _Northumberland County Records 1652-1655_ (Baltimore: Genealogical Publishing, 1961).
  • Gookin, Warner F., The Ancestry of Bartholomew Gosnold, _NEHGR_ 105:5-22 (1951).
  • Gookin, Warner F., Notes on the Gosnold Family, _Virginia Magazine_ 57:307-315 (1949).
  • Lea, J. Henry, Genealogical Gleanings Among the English Archives, _NEHGR_ 56:402-407 (1902).
  • Metcalfe, Walter C. (ed.), _The Visitations of Suffolk. . .[1612]_ (Exeter: William Pollard, 1882).
  • Ritchie, Ruth, and Wood, Sudie Rucker, _Garner-Keene Families of Northern Neck Virginia_ (Charlottesville, VA: Jarman, 1952).
  • Withington, Lothrop, Virginia Gleanings in England, _Virginia Magazine_ 14:87 (1907).

Hope this helps, and I also hope you read the good recent study.

https://www.familysearch.org/tree/person/memories/GZ57-53T

In fact I'll add to documents to make it easier. It is the most comprehensive and up to date document I've seen.

Yeah going by that info my 9th pa wasn't illiterate to the most even educated ones left their marks instead also a mark left behind isn't proof they were illiterate if he was there would be no way he would of been able to do the stuff he did.

Anything helps there's so little on James Keene thats also maybe the father of my 9th pa, don't think we can prove that's the same Thomas Keene under James also. Have a hunch the clues in the link Ive shared will lead us to validation don't think much of those clues was looked into not much is talked about the sponsoring of nobility my 9th pa did and Thomas Keene 3rd his son godfather to the Symands etc.

Here's the recent research study for ancestral clues:

https://www.geni.com/documents/view?doc_id=6000000209345084822&graph_node_id=profile-7666788&mode=tagged

2. Harrison Dwight Cavanaugh, in “Colonial Chesapeake Families British Origins and Descendants”, Vol. 2, page 126, states Thomas Keene of Kent Island was an illiterate cooper and unlikely to be related to the Gosnolds. On Kent Island, Cavanaugh says “Thomas was DIRECTED TO DEVOTE HIS TIME MAKING pipe staves” and he signed a document with a “mark”. At this time, control of Kent Island was manipulated from Virginia to Maryland by the efforts of Captain George Evelin, who was then named Commander of Kent Island and ruled as a virtual dictator. In the “Garner-Keene Families of the Northern Neck” the following quote is found: “Evidence in Maryland Archives (B5, p. 183) would also indicate he was a cooper and DIRECTED THE MAKING OF PIPE STAVES”. This sounds like Thomas was an overseer rather than a tradesman. As far as the “mark”, the only document I see is the will which says “The mark of Thomas Keene John Knight” whatever that means.
Cavanaugh later says Thomas Keene was a cooper and a merchant and a planter. An illiterate is unlikely to be able to function as a successful merchant and planter. An illiterate is also unlikely to sponsor the transportation of “noble” families from England to the Virginia Colonies. Further, Mary Thorley Keene Reyner Broughton’s Will includes a provision for the education of her sons Thomas and Matthew.
Additional note: Edward Thorley, Mary Thorley Keene and Jane Thorley Bashaw may have been the children of James Thorley who was murdered by the Indians in the 1622 Jamestown massacre. Thomas Keene II may have been related to Lt. Richard Keene killed in the same location of Martin’s Hundred.

You need to read the study at https://media.geni.com/p14/db/5b/27/b3/53444866aa487d96/thomas_keene_mary_thorley_original.pdf?hash=5774b29e80f050b1973f7e4c3fd37b8a5be4825adf48766c4bbbe2e30033d567.1761721199 to understand his life and times better.

It's a good study but that research by others I shared about him points out important clues of his parentage and what status he actually was.

Robert Gosnold Grandson Thomas Keene they validated he wasn't even in England when my 9th pa came out to Virginia wasn't recorded that he was at Oatley in a important source fact my 9th pa was also sponsoring nobility from England to Virginia somebody illiterate would never do

Also my 9th pa son Thomas Keene 3rd married into a family or God father of that my 9th pa was sponsoring

Those sources I brought up prob was never looked into those specific people and the nobility my 9th pa was sponsoring looks to me there's still more to look into on my 9th pa revolving around people he was associated with.

Some times the validations hidden with others that a ancestor associates or family with. Like my 6th grandma Lucretia for example found her brother Daniel Huestis last will that states his two sisters and their husbands and that they were too remote to receive anything so he sent his blessings proving my 6th grandma was a Huestis etc. I was the first to share that last Will that blew cousin Fred out the ball park actually.

Reason there was no mention of my 9th pa in England was because he was long gone from England and his brother Robert Keene was already in Virginia as stated by Robert Gosnold in his will.

I mean my 9th pa suppose cousin Anthony Gosnold was already in Virginia as stated by Robert Gosnold and if he return he shall receive his inheritance.

If ya match the 1636 source that Robert Gosnolds grandson Thomas Keene was no longer in England to the timing my 9th pa end up in Virginia to cousin Anthony Gosnold already in Virginia to my 9th pa birth year 1593 and he was sponsoring nobility families to Virginia from England and he was a overseer not a Tradesman in pipe staves there's way more to look into my 9th pa and people around him for sure.

All that is a perfect match what family my 9th pa really belongs to. Don't see anybody pointing that stuff out or looking into people around my 9th pa the sponsoring godfather connection and marriage to the Symands family etc to lead to a direct answer.

Even in the Garner/Keene book published 1952 said that my 4th pa Samuel Garners second wife is unknown but I got his war of 1812 record having his second wife's name on it yup yup

When my 4th pa Samuel Garner died his second wife filed a petition has her name listed right on it just shows there's just more to look into my ancestors is all. The book states we might be descended from Robert Gosnold but look what happen with my 4th pa second wife that was said to be unknown I got the record with her name on it.

Lawrence, that's just not the way we do genealogy for English ancestors.

You need:

  • Birth, baptism, will or other similar documentation that shows a person in England was born to those parents, where and when. There is no such document for Thomas.
  • There is a Gosnold will that names a Thomas Keene grandson. No age is estimated. The study I quoted (which you still haven't read, obviously, or you would have seen this) makes it clear that there is no date given for this grandson; and plenty of circumstantial evidence (such as the size of the legacy) to suggest he was born much before 1593.
  • The study looked up Thomas Keene's born in England around 1593. There were many.
  • Thomas Keene himself made no indication of where he was from. His associates at Kent Island could provide a clue, but so far, no dice.
  • Once you've established the various Thomas Keenes born about 1593 who did not die young or die in England, you then have to show that they were the immigrant. There is nothing that shows the Gosnold grandson was the immigrant. No associations with Virginia (the "uncle Anthony Gosnold" was from a different Gosnold line); no letters, wills, education notes, affiliations, etc.
  • And then, if and when you'd have that clue, you need to run it past a medievalist specialist. The Gosnold grandson claim has been evaluated many times. It's not new news. And it was definitively shot down by two experts in English > America genealogy, and in print. That denial was further validated on the threads I linked you to, which included serious amateur descendants and the working genealogist Leslie Mahler.
  • Your argument seems to come down to, he wasn't illiterate. It does indeed seem he was, and it does seem he came as an indentured servant, and not a 'cavalier' younger son.
  • But be that as it may, he survived, thrived, and left thousands of descendants.
  • I suspect you'll have more luck looking into his wife. There seem more threads to tug on. Thomas Keene's ancestry is a dead end.

Ya got me yeah ya right shucks.. guess my hope is too strong on my 9th pa don't want him to be a dead end. He still could be the grandson we just can't match him to the Will I guess. Appreciate ya help on this Erica. Stuff I've looked at gave me new hope and gave it a shot.

Pretty much, when you see "published in a book by Douglas Richardson," that's all she wrote. His books (Plantagenet Ancestry, Magna Carta Ancestry, Royal Ancestry) cover all the known American immigrants with proven Royal or Noble lines. If they're not in Richardson books, either it's been disproved; or it's new, state of art, and about to be published information.

The study you were working from was 2010. But Richardson published in 2014. And the current study is 2021. As in all things genealogical, we work backwards from "now."

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