Samuel, Tsar of Bulgaria - Samuel, Tsar of Bulgaria

I see this happened in 2015 for whatever reason.

C

Justin Howery Swanstrom erotti henkilön Ripsimia Armenia vanhemmistaan Ashod II Bagratuni King of Armenia.
23.5.2015 klo 6:50 aamupäivällä

Ashod II
Ashod II Bagratuni King of Armenia

This happened after..
C

Customer Service poisti profiilin Ripsimia Armenia ylläpitäjistä henkilön <yksityinen> Swanström (Howery).
11.8.2016 klo 1:37 aamupäivällä

erotti is Finnish and means disengaged and poisti profiilin is also Finnish and means deleted profile

Then I see this..

Ashot II the Iron, king of Armenia
Rhipsime seems as Ashots mother and daughter also mentioned but not put in family.

My thought is that the seemingly well researched histories cited on Wikipedia have Ashot as his grandfather. Until we see better research that definitively that he is NOT his grandfather, the connection should be re-established.

This cannot be fixed by any user whatsover. It is curator's job.
I have made daughter Ripsimia for Ashot but cannot connect It to Ripsimia. It is only ask to join clause.

This Ripsimia happens to be my 44th grandmother and I want my greatgrandmothers ancestry to be corrected.

Ripsimia

Daugher of Ashot II Ripsimia is also mentioned in black in Ashot II:s profile. So why is It so hard to connect her ?

Ashot II the Iron, king of Armenia

Here is already a new profile for Ripsimia that can be joined together as the other Ripsimia.
Ashot II the Iron, king of Armenia

Ripsimia is my 34th grandmother, and I agree this should be fixed. Hopefully a curator can get on this and make the simple adjustment.

Ashot II was originally my 36th grandfather. For me, my connection to him was via Eudokia Komnene's marriage to William of Montpellier. Since her parents were cut from the profile a few weeks ago, everything has changed. If your links to Ashot was via the French, Spanish, British or Scottish royal lines, then it might be the case for you as well. You might want to find Eudokia's profile page, and send a message to the curator. I tried to contact him, but haven't received a reply.

Also, I just checked out of curiosity and it looks like Samuel, Tsar of Bulgaria is my 33rd great grandfather. Must be through James Stewart of Scotland's marriage to Margaret of Denmark. Hi cousins!

Thank you for that Elisha. I was looking for the reason my ancestors number dropped by over 3,000. I had thought it was through Ashot II, but apparently It was the same cut of Eudokia Komnene that I see happened on Thursday. I appreciate you responding to this thread and helping. Also, nice to meet you 18th cousin.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicholas_(komes) says she was only possibly a daughter of Ashot. The Bulgarian inscription cities Nicholas and Ripsime as grandparents of Ivan Vladislav, with no further detail.

is there anything there anything other than the wikipedia article linking her to Ashot

Do you have proof that she isn't, other than a short wikipedia quote? As a curator, the burden of proof lies on you, if you choose to disregard someone's already established lineage - not the other way around.

Read all of these references, spend days pouring through the historical information, and then come to those of us who are descended from them (including yourself by the way - you're her 26th great grandson) and discuss the topic before making the decision for us. A curators job should be to protect the various lineages, and to assist those who make mistakes during merges, etc. Not to go around shredding people's hard work based on opinions that have little merit.

Dom Claude Devic et Dom Joseph Vaissète (dir.), Histoire générale de Languedoc : Volume VI, Toulouse, édition Privat, 1872 (1re éd. 1745)
Livre XIX, LVI. — Mariage de Guillaume VIII, seigneur de Montpellier, avec Eudoxe Comnène. p.62
Livre XX, IV. — Le seigneur de Montpellier répudie Eudoxe Comnène et épouse Agnès. p.117
Autres références
http://genealogy.euweb.cz/byzant/byzant1.html
Lucien Stiernon, « Notes de titulature et de prosopographie byzantines: Sébaste et gambros », Revue des études byzantines, vol. 23,‎ 1965, p. 222–243 (DOI 10.3406/rebyz.1965.1349, lire en ligne).
Jiri Louda et Michael MacLagan, Les Dynasties d'Europe - Tableau 45, Bordas, 1995. (ISBN 2-04-027115-5)

Charles Higounet, « Comté et Maison de Comminges entre France et Aragon au Moyen Âge », in Bulletin hispanique, année 1947, vol. 49, n°49-3-4, p. 311-331
Szabolcs de Vajay, « Eudocie Comnène, l'impératrice des troubadours », Genealogica et heraldica, Copenhague, 1980-1982, p. 321-338.
(de) Winfried Hecht, « Zur Geschichte der "Kaiserin" von Montpellier, Eudoxia Komnena », Revue des études byzantines, vol. 26, no 1,‎ 1968, p. 161-169 (DOI 10.3406/rebyz.1968.1403, lire en ligne)

I don't mean any disrespect, but I am pretty upset by this. And it looks like a lot of other people are being effected by the same incident. All of us on Geni care deeply about establishing connections to our roots. It isn't fair to those who come to this site looking for answers, only to find that their once flourishing family tree has been ruthlessly over pruned.

I will continue doing more research in the next days, and will send everything I find to this discussion. I encourage others to do the same. I know we all have to work together, and sometimes find compromises. History has a lot of twists and turns, and it's very important that we all try and keep an open mind.

King David of Israel

This is the reason. Disrupting that lineage cut off my descent from King David of Israel.

Mine too, Debra Denman.
Hopefully this will get resolved easily and soon.

Hi Joni, sorry we have to meet under these circumstances. :/

I just discovered (since having my suspicions aroused here) that Prince Smbat VII of Armenia (another link for me to King David) has also been recently altered so that he's no longer my direct ancestor.

Nothing like a double-whammy to get our attention. Is that why they do it (for the attention)? I can't think of any other reason, because if they're providing any valid justification for such actions (cutting important/popular lineages), I'm not seeing it.

The latest problem followed a merge, although I thought merges were unacceptable for ancient profiles. It obviously rearranged the kinship connections.

Jason Scott Willis,

To be fair, the Wikipedia quote cites 3 sources. As I stated before, until there is for sure evidence she is not the daughter of Ashot II, then we should lean on the established writing of professionals.

As an aside, she has an Armenian name, definitely not Bulgarian/Macedonian. And she was likely named after her grandmother, the mother of Ashot II.

Samuel was the tzar of Macedonia. But fake history is all around us including Wikipedia so ....

Here is my story: when I applied to Armenian citizenship (after my wife, who is Ethnic Armenian) I was told that I have to wait for three years until I qualify. I told the deputy chief of Police Immigration Service in Yerevan that I do not want to wait so long and also that I have ancient Armenian roots with Armenian royalty, to Bagratuni dynasty among others. The nice lady, Lt.Colonel, asked me to present documents and come again. I did not have documents but I started studying my 35000 DNA cousins from MyHeritage and FamilyTreeDNA. It was a tenuous job and took some time but, suddenly, I started to find in Geni several Bagratuni cousins through princess Ripsime Bagratuni, daughter of Ashot II Erkat, on my side and Jewish rabbies, on the other side. I realised that I had the needed proof backed by DNA. I consulted the best specialist on Armenian DNA, professor Levon Yepiskoposyan in Yerevan, and he accepted my arguments. The above mentioned police officer also accepted my proof and welcomed me to visit Yerevan soon again to get my passport. I will do just that!

Jukka Ilari Heikinheimo Congratulations. See, this is why I'm saying that the information on this site is more important to the individual members than we may realize ourselves. That's why we shouldn't just mess around with the information - this person could have lost his chance at citizenship had this lineage been in it's current state just a few months ago. I'm happy you found the connection in time to receive your passport. I hope you downloaded the information since the links themselves won't work anymore.

Samuel, Tsar of Bulgaria is your 31st great grandfather.

Just saying, people in the top hierarchy married within people in the top hierarchy, according to status or authority. So, princess Ripsime Bagratuni, how many.........other contemporary "Hripsime, Rhipsime, Ripsime, Ripsima" could there have been in the absolute top fitting just as well as she does?

Sometimes the obvious without a specific noted source, is just as good as any documented source. There are good speculations, and bads ones, but in this case, it's not a question about choosing between several options, it's about filling in the gap between two ruling families in the top of the aristocracy in a small area under a very limited time period, if two puzzle pieces and only they fit perfectly together, why not also just put them together?

This is just what most historians actually does when they retells history, sometimes they will have to draw conclusions, but if something really is straight out from the blue, we will surely notice it but that seems not to be the case here.

You've started to demand absolute proof in contemporary sources that explicit says that he or she married that son or daughter with that parentage, because, simply put, you're not historians or educated, or able to lay out any kind of puzzle yourself, probably most likely not fitted to be any kind of curator either, so you just tries to make it much simplier for yourself, without any need or skills of doing the math, it suits you.

This line as many others will never be shown correctly or as correct it can be due to some poeples incapacity to think.

To the question, If we all are related to each other, just look youtube videos about It.

We are all most certainly related to royalty aswell. One of the reasons is that simply the richer had opportunities to have the right conditions to be able to continue familyline.

That includes better marriage opportunities, healthier life, more nutrious, more secure etc.
This is just simple truth.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fm0hOex4psA

I wonder what are the criteria for having documents of birth and familylines. Geni users and curators widely accept all biblical people as the complete hard truth.

We all know that that If we'd need proof of their existent, there is no birth certificates. Jewish, Christian and Islamic books are all hundreds of years or even thousands of years too new to be written by eyewitnesses.

And the lifespans of the certain oldest profiles of biblical persons are most uncertain as the eye of scientific critic analysis.

But we accept these lines aswell many other lines that are just oral tradition.
Then are these compared to ancient times, almost modern times oral tradition that we then do not accept. This puzzles me a lot.

What is the borderline of accepted age of not having any age related documents and what is ? When is the time, when documents are needed ? What culture, what civilization in what age ? I just do not know by these standards of Geni users and curators by just looking. Maybe you all more wisemen will know and tell me.

Common sense tells me that If the name of wife of Tsar of Bulgaria is Ripsimia told to be a princess of Armenia and some kings wife aka queens name in Armenia is Rhipsime and the name is quite rare amongs bulgarians they must be related. The odds just are against of being nothing else.

Of course we are all related and descended from royalty the problem is is there any proof the ripsimia is the daughter of Ashot. He died without heirs and the kingdom passed to his brother.

Isn't It that usually son herited the kingdom,
daughter was sent to marry another one ?

In this case It was Ashot just did not have a son.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ashot_II_of_Armenia

"Ashot died without any sons or heirs and his daughter was married to the Duke of Sofia Nicholas and mothered Tsar Samuel of Bulgaria. He was succeeded ca. 929 by his brother Abas. "

Here is one familytree. It too shows only one daughter.
https://gw.geneanet.org/gmathout?lang=en&amp;n=bagratid&amp;oc=1&am...
https://gw.geneanet.org/comrade28?lang=en&amp;n=armenia&amp;oc=0&am...
F Princess Rhipsime Bagratuni Of Armenia 911-969 With Prince Nikola Of Bulgaria 902-947

https://books.google.fi/books?id=cJUYDAAAQBAJ&amp;pg=PA154&amp;lpg=...

In this book page 154 says.. "the regognition of Bagratik king of Armenia no longer depended on ancestral lineage and support of nakharars.."

So here It clearly says that inheritage of Kingdom no longer files as a proof of kingdoms lack of descendants.
https://books.google.fi/books?id=sARBDgAAQBAJ&amp;pg=PT42&amp;lpg=P...

https://books.google.fi/books?id=UMIWDAAAQBAJ&amp;pg=PA60&amp;lpg=P...

Picture of Ashot II -> Statue of Ashot II
http://equestrianstatue.org/ashot-ii-2/

References

(in French) Adontz, Nicholas, "Ašot Erkat' ou de fer roi d'Arménie de 913 à 929," Annuaire de l'Institute de philologie et d'histoire orientales et slaves 3 (1935), pp. 13-35.
Garsoïan, Nina G. (1997), "The Independent Kingdoms of Medieval Armenia" in The Armenian People from Ancient to Modern Times, Volume I, The Dynastic Periods: From Antiquity to the Fourteenth Century, ed. Richard G. Hovannisian. New York: St. Martin's Press, pp. 158-59.
Runciman, Steven (1929), The Emperor Romanus Lecapenus and His Reign: A Study of Tenth-Century Byzantium. Cambridge: Cambridge University Press, pp. 129-33, 154-56.
Runciman. Romanus Lecapenus, p. 131.
Treadgold, Warren (1997). A History of Byzantine State and Society. Stanford: Stanford University Press. p. 474.
Garsoïan. "The Independent Kingdoms of Medieval Armenia," p. 160.
Runciman. Romanus Lecapenus, p. 134.
Yovhannes Drasxanakertc'i (1987), History of Armenia, trans. Krikor Maksoudian. Atlanta, GA: Scholar's Press, p. 290, note 8.

Different Ashot II from Georgia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ashot_II_of_Tao

Ashot died without any sons or heirs and his daughter was married to the Duke of Sofia Nicholas and mothered Tsar Samuel of Bulgaria. He was succeeded ca. 929 by his brother Abas.

says wiki, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ashot_II_of_Armenia

As I read it, he died without any son... and his daughter, ...do I need to spell it out loud?

According to many of you curators, Wiki is not a source and the quality are not good.
No, the quality depends on who wrote what and the sources they did use. This means, that sometimes, wiki is just as good as any other dictionary, lexicon, sometimes it's not.
It's all about the sources, and how well they are reproduced in the text, that defines what we can say about the quality.

He died without heirs (male sons) and the kingdom passed to his brother.

Does not contradict: his daughter was married to the Duke of Sofia Nicholas and mothered Tsar Samuel of Bulgaria.

It seems that this relationship is widely accepted. I do not myself yet have got source for these relations but why should I doubt It, If no reason at all.

http://www.gutenberg.us/article/WHEBN0000046547/Samuel%20of%20Bulgaria

"His mother was Ripsimia of Armenia, the daughter of King Ashot II of Armenia.[20]"

I find no reason to doubt it, either, Arsi.