Need Curator to Advise

Just noticed that another known cousin on these lines who has always matched my son is showing up as an autosomal match to the new profiles I added tonight for my son's great-uncle Dempsey Ingram, his son David and David's son Sean. She does not show up matching the David Ingram with the conflicting haplogroup.

Lindsey Swindler

I think you should start a private discussiion with David by sending him a private message explaining the problem. David hasn't been on Geni since september, but a private message will be forwarded to his email. Then you can go from there. One of you probably have a wrong paternal line in your genealogy, and to find out where, more dna tests from other persons being descendants in the paternal line is probably needed.

So I shouldn't continue to work on my son's tree until things are resolved with David? What if he doesn't even respond or gets upset at the suggestion that maybe his connections are wrong, am I then just permanently stalled on completing my son's connections? I'm "assuming" his connections are wrong since he doesn't have the DNA matches showing up that my son, but he may not agree with that assessment and then what? My son's lines already have others who have been tested, which is why he has the matches he has and found the lines. They match on both FTDNA and Ancestry. David is the one probably needing other relatives to test.

I went ahead and messaged David. If he gets someone else in his family to test, that can still take weeks to a couple of months to get the results back and it's either going to show him that he doesn't match folks in his own family or that he has his connections on Geni to the wrong family, because my son already has three matching malesY-DNA tested and matching as well as another cousin matching on the atDNA and they're atDNA matching the profiled ancestors, which David isn't. So the problem appears to be on David's side, not my son's but we're in Geni limbo on the work on the lines until we know what David is going to do? That just doesn't seem fair, given what already matches for my son and he's so eager to trace his lines on out. Bummer.

David hasn't done an autosomal test like Family Finder, or atleast not uploaded the results of one on Geni. So you will not find any autosomal dna results from him.

What is the relationship from the 3 matching YDNA back to Charles Ingram and what is the relationship from your son to these 3 persons?

The best thing is to get YDNA from other sons of Charles YDNA line (if present) or from Charles' possible brothers YDNA lines. If plenty enough get tested, you will see a pattern and can then make a decision of whose genealogy is correct.

Good that you sent him a message.

Good point. I hadn't even thought of that, Remi.

I thought I gave all the info already. John Ingram and his son Sean have been Y-DNA tested, they are descendants of Dempsey David Ingram who is my son's paternal great uncle. Based on my current research, they'd all be descendants of Charles Ingram I.

I've been tracing on David's line today and it doesn't match what he has connected. I've added some photos and documents to his profiles but didn't make any changes. Where he has the parents of his Thomas Benjamin Ingram as Benjamin John and Sarah, I finally found an excerpt from a book on the family genealogy listing Thomas Benjamin's parents as John and Patience. So that's just one error I found in his connections, which would make what he has from there back to need retracing as well and I feel that's his job to do. The connections on Ancestry vary and conflict because it seems his lines aren't well-documented and people just pick up from other trees and perpetuate errors. The main source seems to be what's on Family Search, without any sources.

In my Ancestry tree I'm connecting David's lines based on my research today, not on what he has connected on Geni, because of the incorrect parents for his Thomas Benjamin and not wanting to make changes on his folks on Geni other than adding notes and documents in hopes it'll prompt him to do more research and sort it all out.

I haven't yet had any response from David.

As I mentioned before, we already have three tested from the descendants of James Belvin Ingram Sr.'s lines who descend from Charles Ingram I and all match. I feel anything more is up to David since it's his lines that aren't trekking correctly.

The excerpt from the book I found has no name for the book or any other information on it, just a screenshot of a page from it, but that was the only thing I found that showed any true genealogy on David's line other than people coping from online trees.
But I put it in the profiles so David or anyone else can see the connections as written about.

Debbie Gambrell -- you say "All three of them match on Y-DNA in FTDNA and on autosomal matches in Ancestry."
Do not know if you are aware -- FTDNA fixed its programming and algorithms relatively recently, so folks can "transfer" results from Ancestry to FTDNA and get the full set of matches at FTDNA. The transfer is free, and seeing the matches is free.
So - if you (or anyone else reading this) do not also have autosomal results at FTDNA, I strongly suggest doing so -- on the same Kit so you can take advantage of the Advanced Matching capability (see folks who match on BOTH Y-DNA and familyfinder).
To use the Chromosome Browser if you do the Free Transfer is a one-time charge of $19 -- Ancestry does not have a Chromosome Browser, so perhaps you feel no need. But personally, I very much like it for confirming folks are related thru a common ancestor.

Re: "The three of them are haplogroup I-M253 but David Ingram attached to the profile I want to connect these guys to is haplogroup M-253." -- are these definitely different Haplogroups?

According to Wikipedia, "Haplogroup I-M253, also known as I1, is a Y chromosome haplogroup. The genetic markers confirmed as identifying I-M253 are the SNPs M253,M307.2/P203.2, M450/S109, P30, P40, L64, L75, L80, L81, L118, L121/S62, L123, L124/S64, L125/S65, L157.1, L186, and L187.[6] It is a primary branch of Haplogroup I-M170 (I*)."
Perhaps the person showig "M253" has actually tested that SNP, while the others have not done any SNP testing?

Looked for M253 and found this: https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/y-dna-i1/about/background - so to me, it looks like it is probably not a conflict

I have to totally apologize. I guess my cold meds have killed some brain cells. Let me start over. I typed David's haplogroup wrong. Don't know where I

Len Ingram = I-M253
David Ingram = R-M269

I erroneously put that David's was M253, which I'm guessing was left from the copy/paste when I put my son's in and I didn't realize it, but that's not even a haplogroup category like I or R but rather the mutation designation on Len's I group.

So we're comparing I and R, regardless, and they aren't the same.

Sorry you put so much effort into searching all that and I had typed in the wrong thing.for David.

Lois, Len had his atDNA test done by My Heritage but transferred that to FTDNA and then recently had the Y-DNA done by FTDNA, so he has both on FTDNA. On Geni his Y-DNA, atDNA and mtDNA are all three linked to his profile.

Len Ingram

Debbie - assuming all three of Len's DNA (at, Y, and mt) results are attached to the same Kit at FTDNA, then all is good with that.
But there seemed to be other folks whose results you were looking at, at Ancestry - and since for a long time the transfer function to FTDNA was not working properly, and when it was working, for the recent-ish results you could not get the distant and speculative matches - but now you can - it may be worth sharing the info about FTDNA now transferring well and with the full range of matches with the Managers of the other folks at Ancestry with whom he matches. At Ancestry, you are basically just seeing if the Trees match -- at FTDNA you can see if they match each other on the same Chromosome Segments.

Once we linked Len's new Ancestry atDNA results to our tree on Ancestry, those same guys show up in his matches and ThruLines. I'd share screenshots if this app allowed but I did attach a screenshot of the ThruLines match to the Geni profiles because it shows the matching segments and cMs.

Len only has one kit with FTDNA so, yes, his mtDNA, Y-DNA and atDNA (from My Heritage transfer) are all linked to the one kit, like you said. All of his has been fairly recently done, so we never had the issue of not being able to link it all.

John Ingram is Len's 1st cousin once removed and their match shows at 16 matching segments with largest being 242 cM. Sean Ingram is Len's 2nd cousin and they have 7 matching segments with the largest being 118 cM. They're all in haplogroup I-M253.

So basically, once you link your DNA to your Ancestry tree you're not just matching tree but DNA a well. I realize not everyone has their DNA linked to their tree but Len, John and Sean do.

You know you match DNA - BUT you do not know if the match has anything to do with the ancestors you show as matching.
Six of you may match, and the six of you may show the same Ancestor couple on your Tree -- but there is nothing showing the DNA you share actually comes from that couple, or even from a common ancestor couple.
With a Chromosome Browser, you can actually tell if the DNA matching actually seems to come from the same ancestors -- or if there is no indication in the DNA that it comes from the same ancestors. To me, seeing the actual proof via the Chromosome Browser is important. Am interested in seeing what the Chromosome Browser shows - and preferably looking from at least two kits, so I can see triangulation, or if not, having one of the others confirm what I think I am seeing so I know if triangulation is confirmed.

I tested DNA at Ancestry as well, and I see total cM shared and number of segments shared - but do not see any place on Ancestry where it gives largest Segment shared - where are you finding that on Ancestry?

Look, I'm 71 and right now I'm sick. All this is too much work for me when I don't feel like my son's connections are wrong. I feel like you're wanting me to prove my son's connections when the question is why does David have a different haplogroup. I'm worn out from all this. Maybe I don't say things right. It shows the cM and segments on ThruLines. I haven't even been working with DNA and all these apps a year yet and am still learning all the time. But all this is detailed discussion about my son's DNA matches isn't helping me be able to continue to work on his tree in Geni. This app doesn't allow me to share screenshots, which would be a lot easier. And besides, seems like David is the one who needs to be proving something at this point. At any rate, I need a break from all this. My initial question was how to proceed about continuing work on my son's tree, not having to jump through hoops to convince someone he's related to the connections we know about that match, but about how someone with a different haplogroup is connected to the lines. It seems we've gotten way off track of my original purpose for posting. This has all gotten to be too much for this old head to deal with. If I can't add his lines in Geni, I'll do it in Ancestry and maybe I won't renew my paid subscription to Geni for either of us when they expire.

As for not knowing that my son's DNA matches have anything to do with the ancestors we're matching, one is his great uncle, one is his 1st cousin once removed and one his second cousin, all descended from the same folks. All the same haplogroup. Only David is in a different group. That's the bottom line. Seems more his problem than for the others. I think I'll leave it at that for him to sort out, if he even cares to work on it.

I tried. I give up. Too much for me to stress over.