Thomas Gilbert - Two Thomas Gilberts, both MPs

Dan Cornett

They seem to be different ... except death dates & locations are the same ... and the About's may be similarly confused.

I suspect they really are Thomas's of two different parents ... but I'm not at all confident that they both ended up in the same place.

I added suffixes based on currently-assigned birth locales so it might be easier to tell them apart -- but (at this point) I can't really say which is the Thomas died CT.

However, the daughter of the Yorkshire Thomas (Prudence Morgan) has a birth location of MA, so he (of Yorkshire) might be the one with the incorrect death information.

If it is any help, the website "Descendants of Thomas Gilbert"
http://dunhamwilcox.net/source_files/gilbert_1.htm#1 (with sources given) seems to indicate that Thomas Gilbert (baptized on 25 Apr 1589 in Yardley, Worcester, ENG) was the son of Richard Gilbert and Margery Morken, and died before 5 Sep 1659 in Wethersfield, Hartford Co., CT.

This site indicates that Thomas married Elizabeth Bennett on 29 Aug 1610 in Yardley, co. Worcester, ENG (Elizabeth Bennett was born in England.) [source given]

Children listed for this marriage are:

i. Jonathan Gilbert, born in 1617 in England, baptized on 8 Jun 1617 in Yardley, Worcester, ENG
ii. Thomas Gilbert, baptized on 16 Feb 1611/12 in Yardley, Worcester, ENG
iii. Josiah Gilbert, baptized on 27 Nov 1625 in Yardley, Worcester, ENG
iv. Obadiah Gilbert, baptized on 7 Jun 1629 in Yardley, Worcester, ENG
v. Sarah Gilbert,born about 1615 in Yardley, Worcester, ENG.
vi. John Gilbert, baptized on 9 Jan 1619/20 in Yardley, Worcester, ENG
vii. Ezekiel Gilbert, baptized on 17 Feb 1621/22 in Yardley, Worcester, ENG
viii. Infant Gilbert [gender not listed], buried on 3 Nov 1624 in Yardley, Worcester, ENG

(see site for deat dates, sources and further details)

it further notes that:

Thomas married Lydia Unknown (Gilbert). (Lydia Unknown (Gilbert) was born about 1596 in England and died about 1654 in Windsor, Hartford Co., CT.)

This Lydia was accused of witchcraft, in Hartford, in November of 1654.

(There are no children listed on this site for Thomas and Lydia).

Hope this information proves to be of some help in solving this puzzle.

The following website: https://www.dkdonovan.com/getperson.php?personID=I25009 might also help to shed som light on this situation.

It appears that the following geni profile might be linked in here as well:

Thomas Gilbert, Il

The following pages might also prove useful:
http://hausegenealogy.com/gilbert.html (includes discussion on Prudence Morgan).
https://www.werelate.org/wiki/Family:Thomas_Gilbert_and_Elizabeth_B... (hyperlinks to sources)
https://freepages.rootsweb.com/~trotterj/genealogy/lapham.html
https://www.genealogy.com/forum/surnames/topics/gilbert/8091/ (discussion on marriages of Thomas)
http://trees.wmgs.org/getperson.php?personID=I7531&tree=Schirado (with source notes for further reference-this one has Thomas married three times)
https://freepages.rootsweb.com/~dmasilm/genealogy/gilbert.htm (appears to have a fair deal of research on this issue).

https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/63228922/elizabeth_lydia_-gilbert (gravesite location of Lydia (BENNETT) Gilbert and some other family members)

http://www.usgennet.org/usa/ma/county/hampden/gene/bios2_spfld.html (information on Thomas Gilbert, Jr. (d. 5 June 1662) previous page of website also lists information on the BLISS family which is connected in with the Gilberts.)

Jathan Pfeifle and Dan Cornett, thank you both.

I am still recovering from surgery but will work on the Gilberts more in a few days.

What makes this sitiuation even more confusing ( for me) is the fact that I am the 9th great grandson of Thomas Gilbert of Yorkshire
and the 10th great grandson of Thomas Gilbert of Yardley...
and they connect to the SAME person in my direct line... one line goes through the mother, and one line goes through the father, the only difference in the two being the top four people in one line, and the top 5 people in the other line.

Yorkshire line:
You
→ Joan Marie Twing
your mother → Harrry Eugene Twing, Sr
her father → Charles Samuel Twing
his father → Samuel Josephus Twing
his father → Josephus Thwing
his father → Margaret Twing
his mother → Catherine Melvin
her mother → Ebenezer Morgan
her father → David Morgan
his father → Prudence Morgan
his mother → Thomas Gilbert, of Yorkshire
her father

--------
Yardley line:
You
→ Joan Marie Twing
your mother → Harrry Eugene Twing, Sr
her father → Charles Samuel Twing
his father → Samuel Josephus Twing
his father → Josephus Thwing
his father → Margaret Twing
his mother → Catherine Melvin
her mother → Sarah Morgan
her mother → Sarah Warner
her mother → Sarah Field
her mother → Thomas Gilbert, Jr.
her father → Thomas Gilbert, of Yardley, Worcestershire
his father

-----------
So you can see why this would be so confusing (and intriguing)....lol. My genealogy is full of crossovers (The Stewart line--same family within a few generations of connection) connects directly to three of my four grandpartent lines...) and double cousins (and triple cousins or grandparents) and a grandparent being a multiple (at least two individuals within 10-12 generations, in America, are triple).

For instance: (William Douglas, b 1610, m. Ann Mattle), https://geni.com/Gq9Xv
is my 9th great grandfather as well as my double 10th great grandfather, in addition to multiple other cousin connections)

I for one wll be glad when this dilemna can finally get figured out (hopefuly) and the parents of the two different Thomas Gilberts ascertained. (With our luck they will still connect to the same Gilbert line within a few generations...).

Looking forward to hearing more.

Im thinking its possible Thomas Gilbert of Yorkshire is a fudge to give Prudence Gilbert parents.

http://trees.wmgs.org/getperson.php?personID=I10542&tree=Schirado

A husband with a statue and a wikipedia page:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miles_Morgan

"On the voyage from Bristol he had made the acquaintance of Miss Prudence Gilbert, who was emigrating to the New World with her family. Once settled in Agawam he had a letter written to Prudence, who had settled in Beverly, north of Boston, and proposed marriage. She accepted and in 1642, accompanied by an Indian guide, a pack horse, and two companions, Miles set out for Beverly, where the couple were married. Prudence, her possessions piled on the horse, walked the 120 miles back to Springfield with her new husband."

Thomas of Yorkshire is really Thomas Gilbert jr who married Lydia

New England Marriages Prior to 1700
Clarence Almon Torrey · 1985 · Reference
... Springfield GILBERT, Thomas (1655 - 1719 , in 64th y) & 1/wf Lydia BALLOTT (1670 –1708); 26 Nov 1690, 26 Nov 1689, ...

Prudence Gilbert b 1617 seems unidentified parents and Torrey is uncertain of her surname. I do not find her 1636 or 1643 marriage in VR of Salem or Beverly.

This is one description of her origins but I’m having trouble confirming:

https://www.genealogy.com/forum/surnames/topics/gilbert/6558/

Prudence b 1617 d Nov 14, 1660 Springfield Hampden, MA was daughter of Thomas Gilbert b April 12, 1589, Greenway, Bixham, Devonshire, England& his ?3rd wife, Lydia Ballat (hung as a witch).

Prudence would have been 4th cousins to Sir Humphrey. All but one of the Gilbert groups that settled in New England appear to have been related although distantly.

I was doing some research online earlier today (January 6), and I came across the following information concerning the parentage of Prudence Gilbert which might be of interest to you (more details are available on the websites listed.

The surname was first found in Devonshire, where they were seated from very ancient times, some say well before the Norman Conquest and the arrival of Duke William at Hastings in 1066 A.D. The Gilbert family in our lineage apparently sailed to America during the great Puritan Migration in 1636. During this time their daughter, PRUDENCE GILBERT (1616 - 24 Jan 1660), met a man named MILES MORGAN of Springfield, Massachusetts, as detailed here [see website for details]
http://hausegenealogy.com/gilbert.html

======================
*Prudence Gilbert: (born: 1617, Beverly, Yorkshire, England; died 14 Nov 1660, Springfield, Hapmdan, Massachusetts; buried: Sptingfield, Hampden, Massachusetts
*Father, Thomas Gilbert, b. 25 Apr 1589, Beverley, Yorkshire, England d. 5 Sep 1659, Wethersfield, Hartford, Connecticut (Age 70 years)
*Mother. Lydia, b. Abt 1596, England d. Abt 1654, Windsor, Hartford, Connecticut (Age ~ 58 years)
maried: 29 Aug 1610, Meriden, Warwichshire, England
(includes family group sheet listing sibilings, dates and locations, as well as marriage/family with Sgt. MIles Morgan)

===============================

Name: Prudence Gilbert
Birth: Beverley, Yorkshire, England
14 November 1660
Springfield, Hampden, Massachusetts, United States
Burial: 16 November 1660, Springfield, Hampden, Massachusetts, United States
April 1636
Father of Prudence: Thomas Gilbert (MQJ5-37F)
Mother of Prudence: Lydia Ballat, 1586-1654 (2H23-R74)

Miles Morgan sailed on the ship called "Mary" and arrived in Boston April 1836. On the voyage from Bristol he had made the acquainted of Miss Prudence Gilbert, who was emigrating to the New World with her family. Once settled in Agawam he had a letter written to Prudence who had settled in Beverly, north of Boston and proposed marriage. She accepted and in 1642, accompanied by an Indian guide, a pack horse, and two companion, Miles set out for Beverly where the couple were married. Prudence, her possessions piled on the horse, walked the 120 miles back to Springfield with her new husband.
(Quite an extensive list of sources included)

================================

NOTE: this document includes research notess which are not all copied here).
Descendants of Richard Gilbert of Yardley, Worcester, England
First Generation
----------------------------------------

1. Richard GILBERT. Born about 1550 in England. Richard died in Yardley, Worcester, England bef 8 Apr 1626, he was 76. Alias/AKA: GILBERT, GILBERTT, GILBERD, GILLBERTT, GILLBARTT, GILLBERD.
Research: The Devon family of Gilbert can be traced to Geoffrey Gilbert (died 1349) who represented Totnes in Parliament in 1326. His descendents include Sir Humphrey Gilbert, who discovered Newfoundland.
On 25 Jun 1575 when Richard was 25, he married Margery MORKEN (MORGAN), in Yardley, Worcester, England.
Research: search parish records of Warwickshire and Staffordshire
there exist no entries in parish records of Yardley for Morken
currently, unknown parentage
research performed by Douglas Richardson, published in "American Genealogist" July 1992

They had the following children:
2 i. Elizabeth (1576-)
3 ii. Parnell (1578-)
4 iii. Margaret (1580-)
5 iv. Richard (1586-~1586)
6 v. Thomas (1592-<1659)
2. Elizabeth GILBERT. Born on 8 Apr 1576 in Yardley, Worcester, England. On 16 Apr 1605 when Elizabeth was 29, she married Thomas MARSHE, in Yardley, Worcester, England. They had one child:
7 i. Elizabeth (~1607-)
3. Parnell GILBERT. Born on 15 Jun 1578 in Yardley, Worcester, England.
4. Margaret GILBERT. Born on 1 Oct 1580 in Yardley, Worcester, England.
On 2 Nov 1603 when Margaret was 23, she married John MERSTON, in Yardley, Worcester, England.
5. Richard GILBERT. Born on 1 Jan 1586/87 in Yardley, Worcester, England. Richard died about 18 Jan 1586/87 in Yardley, Worcester, England.
6. Thomas GILBERT.[1] Born on 25 Apr 1592 in Yardley, Worcester, England.[2] Thomas died in Nayaug, Wethersfield, CT bef 5 Sep 1659, he was 67.[3] Thomas was baptized in Worcester, Yardley, England. Granted land and settled at Mt. Wolleston, MA in 1640; later at Windsor and Wethersfield, CT [4]

Research: Immigration: Before 24 Feb 1639/40 Braintree, Mass.

On 29 Aug 1610 when Thomas was 18, he married Elizabeth BENNETT, in Worcester, Yardley, England.
Elizabeth died in prob. Wethersfield, CT. They had the following children:
8 i. Obadiah (~1630-<1675)
9 ii. Jonathan (1617-1682)
10 iii. Prudence (1617-1660) [<------- Prudence who married Sgt. Miles Morgan]
11 iv. Thomas (-1662)
12 v. Ezekiel (1621-1664)
13 vi. Sarah (~1624-<1687)
14 vii. Giles (1624-)
15 viii. Joseph (1626-)
16 ix. John (1626-1690)
17 x. Josiah (1628-<1688)
18 xi. Mary (1628-)
Third Generation
----------------------------------------
[some individuals skipped]
10. Prudence GILBERT. Born in 1617 in Beverly, York, England. Prudence died on 14 Nov 1660, she was 43.
11. Thomas GILBERT. Born in England.[28] Thomas died on 5 Jun 1662 in Springfield, Hampden co., MA. Thomas was baptized in Yardley, Worcester, England on 16 Feb 1611.

**numbers in brackets refer to sources. Extensive source listing given at end of web page**

{NOTE: this document extensive infromation on Thomas, the father of Prudence. It also gives the mother of Prudence as Elizabeth Bennett (does not list Lydia Ballard)]

https://www.familysearch.org/service/tree/tree-data/pdf/family-grou...

============

Richardson is a very reliable source, and we should follow his study as given here:

https://freepages.rootsweb.com/~dmasilm/genealogy/gilbert.htm

He identified the “witch” Lydia in the next generation; busted Yorkshire origins; and does not have Prudence. Plus, she lived in different locations from the Thomas Gilbert Family.

I had seen one version of her True Romance story which was careful to say she was living with relatives, not necessarily parents. And remember she’s supposedly on an unnamed ship embarking from Bristol, and married at Salem or Beverly MA ... which are not places Thomas Gilbert is known to have lived (he was Braintree & Wethersfield).

Also notice Richardson compiled Gilbert’s from Yardley in Worcester, births & marriages - and no Prudence.

I did look for other Gilbert families with no luck. But if she was accompanying a related family, perhaps they weren’t Gilbert’s.

NB a Devon Family for Prudence makes sense if she’s on a ship from Bristol in 1635.

https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/6167316/thomas-gilbert

“ Thomas migrated to Nantasket, Massachusetts in 1630 on the ship Mary & John with his wife, Lydia and his children Josiah, Lydia and Prudence.
Thomas and Lydia were married 8/29/1610 in Yardley Parish, Worcestershire, England”

If this is true how did Prudence meet Miles Morgan on a ship in 1635?

Argh.

I noticed in one of the above posts (by myself, Jathan Pfeifle, on Jan 6, 2020, at 8:26 PM (PST) a quote saying that "On the voyage from Bristol he had made the acquainted of Miss Prudence Gilbert, who was emigrating to the New World with her family. " This does not necessarily mean that Prudence was on the ship with him. On the voyage from Bristol the ship may have stopped at another location for some time--in 1635, before continuing to sail to America (ships records/schedule would have to be investigated to determine this) and that Prudence was emigrating with her family. From the wording above, it is possible that he met Prudence and her family while docked at some location after the ship he was on left Bristol, but Prudence was awaiting another ship at that time.
=======
On the other hand, both Thomas Gilbert and Prudence and her family are listed as coming on a ship beginning with "Mary" (Thomas on "Mary" arriving in Boston in April 1636) and Prudence, on "Mary and John" to Nantasket, MA, in 1630). Is it possible that the year printed is incorrect in one of the two documents? Nantasket, MA and Boston, MA are only about 19.6 miles away on today's maps. It is quite logical that one document was simply more specific as to location (the place of settlement rather than place of docking?) This would logically explain how the two could have met "on the voyage from Bristol" in 1635. Perhaps some ship manifests were not complete (I know many of the ship passenger listings which I have seen for "The Susan and Ellen," upon which my ancestor Benjain Thwing came to America in April 1635 (also Boston), do not have complete manifests (nor do they record the name of his spouse who supposedly came over with him), but only list a small portion of the total passengers on board).

Just something to consider.

Thomas Gilbert of Yardley's wife was not Lydia, she was Elizabeth Bennett. There were no Prudence Gilbert's found in the baptism registers at or near Yardley. Prudence was not their daughter.

So the question becomes, who were her parents? Were they the Yorkshire couple with Yardleys dates in their profiles? I dont think so, i think they're just garbled profiles that should be merged away to stop causing confusion, and Prudence liberated so real parents could be found.

I would put money on Prudence having Devon origins, perhaps even Brixham, and that the family she traveled and lived with at Beverly MA were not surnamed Gilbert.