Hedwige de Normandy, Countess of Rennes, Duchess and Regent of Brittany - HEDWIGE DE NORMANDY

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hawise_of_Normandy

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_I_of_Normandy

Yes, I believe you are correct. She's also known as "Hawise". Her mother was Gunnor, the sister of the wife of a forester with whom Duke Richard had become infatuated. Richard had several children with Gunnor, and his wife's family became very politically prominent.

She was his legitimate heir, because Richard eventually got around to marrying Gunnor. And Hawise married Geoffrey I, Duke of Brittany,

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geoffrey_I,_Duke_of_Brittany

We've got another set of MP'd duplicates, sharing the same death date.

Hawise, Duchess of Brittany

https://www.geni.com/discussions/158450?msg=1351462

Sheila, I cross-posted this discussion on the Medieval Duplicates thread.

Thank you very much. Deciphering all the wives, husbands and mistresses if very confusing at times, especially when the first name is often the same. Thank goodness we have you to help us.

You're welcome, although I don't think we're any closer to straightening it out quite yet. I haven't done much other than try to help you draw attention to the problem, and begin to look into it myself.

When I google Hedwige de Normandy (etc., long titles) -- I get nothing of the sort. And that probably aligns with the fact that her profile possesses no sources whatsoever. Not even some background info or any explanations in the About section.

I don't pretend to be a genealogist, but when I google Hedwige de Normandy, I only get Hawise of Normandy, and that Geni profile already exists on its own merit.

Additionally, I see Hedwige of Saxony, whose daughter, Emma de France (aka Emma of Paris) married Richard I, 'the Fearless', Duke of Normandy.

Hawise of Normandy is the daughter of Richard I, and I don't find any evidence of him having a daughter named Hedwige (etc., long title).

https://www.wikiwand.com/en/Richard_I_of_Normandy

https://www.wikiwand.com/en/Hedwig_of_Saxony

Sheila, I'm always pleased to be of service in reducing some of the natural confusion, wherever possible. But I don't wake up before coffee saying, "How can I help today." :D

I must confess my interest is purely selfish, since the profiles in question are my ancestors, whose history would be meaningless without accurate facts.

I hope you don't mind if I take this opportunity to again cross-reference your discussion with the Medieval Duplicates thread. I'm sure the curators are already working on it and we'll hear from them and see some results very soon.

https://www.geni.com/discussions/158450?msg=1351462

There is another Hawise de Bretagne, duchesse de Bretagne, who was actually born in Brittany. The two may have become confused.

"Hawise of Rennes (Breton: Hawiz Breizh; French: Havoise de Bretagne) (c. 1037 – August 19, 1072) was hereditary Duchess of Brittany from 1066 until her death.

"She was the second child and heiress of Alan III, Duke of Brittany by his wife Berthe de Blois, and as such, a member of the House of Rennes. Hawise survived her older brother Conan II, Duke of Brittany, who was assassinated by poisoning on December 11, 1066.

"Little is known of the life of Hawise of Rennes. As with most noblewomen in the Middle Ages, hers may have been a political marriage with Hoel of Cornwall (French: Cornouaille; Breton: Kerne). A dynastic alliance between the house of Rennes in the east and the house of Cornwall in the west may have further strengthened and consolidated authority in Brittany. Hoel may have exercised authority jure uxoris, by right of his wife, and continued to control the government after her death in 1072 acting as regent for their son. Hawise and Hoel were succeeded to the ducal throne by their 18-year-old son Alan IV, Duke of Brittany in 1084."

Geoffroy I, duke of Brittany

Emme de Bretagne

Emma de Bretagne

Robert de Brusse

A while back we had to sort out a confusion between Hawise daughter of Alan IV "Fergant" of Brittany and another Hawise whom Geoffrey de Porhoet married. Generations of sloppy researchers had conflated them into the same person, but a *very* minor amount of analytical reasoning showed that they couldn't be. Alan's daughter was packed off to Flanders as a minor for a contract marriage with Baldwin VII, himself still well underage - the marriage, and/or the political alliance it was meant to establish, was not a success and was annulled, but the process took years.

But while *that* Hawise was still in Flanders, the *other* Hawise met and married Geoffrey de Porhoet and got busy producing a bunch of little Porhoets. (She was probably a few years older to begin with.) They had at least four sons and at least one daughter, the oldest born in Brittany at a time when Baldwin's Hawise is known to have been in Flanders and still married to him.

There was a surprising amount of resistance to separating the two Hawises, including from one blowhard (*not* Dale C. Rice for once) who spun a smoke screen about "adultery" and "bigamy" and whatnot. It wasn't even as if the name was so uncommon - I ran a count of "Hawise" profiles on Geni for the 11th and 12th centuries, and came up with something like 200 of them. Obviously there was a Big Fad for the name at the time.

As to what became of Baldwin's Hawise - we don't really know. The final decree ending her marriage came in 1115, after which she seems to have returned to Brittany, cosigned one or two charters of her brother's, and...disappeared. (Her mother was a bit of a flake who wound up withdrawing to a convent - perhaps Hawise did likewise.)

Private User, I enjoy reading your posts. LOL

That was an interesting story (other than the gratuitous insult thrown at a fellow Geni user), and probably a great topic of conversation at cocktail parties -- but hardly relevant to the topic of this discussion thread, imho.

I am wondering how Hedwige de Normandy, 1st wife of Geoffroy Duke of Brittany was listed as being 5 years old when she gave birth to Emme of Brittany. It lists in the entry for Hedwige that she was born in 1005, but then lists that her Daughter Emme was born in 1010. This would make Hedwige 5 years old when her Daughter was born? Just looking for some clarity here.

I probably wasn't clear enough earlier, but I quite easily found, with just a bit of googling, that "Hedwige" is definitely a faulty duplicate of Hawise, and that otherwise there is NO evidence or source listed to show that it is a real ancestor -- so that it should have been Hawise who was mother of Emme (who also has a duplicate and whose historically evident kinships are not fully developed here either).

But I see that it might take a long, long time for anything to be done about it (if ever), since the Medieval ancestors are locked up in MPs, and only curators can change anything. I take it the lack of response is meaningful. It means nothing will be done about it, or that they don't know what to do about it, or that they don't have time for it.

I enjoy doing the research, but not the hassles. It seems that if the World Tree is to be a democratic or egalitarian sort of enterprise, then that's what is should be. And that historical profiles if MP'd (or, curated) should only be done so when complete, accurate, and without duplication.

But that appears to be an impossible task, for some reason. However, this was all more than a decade in the making, so any early mistakes will likely take another decade to straighten out. The duplicate was created in 2008, just one and a half years after the original (and in my opinion, most accurate historically, as it displays more detail and certainty -- and provides a reasonably reliable source).

I don't know how a historical MP could have been created without sources and allowed to stand as a duplicate (really an imposter, as it carries the progeny of the real one) for more than a decade, but that is apparently what happened in this case.

Time was, when Geni first got started, that unrestricted GEDCOM uploading was allowed. This eventually got so far out of hand (multiple duplicates of all the significant people, many of them with wrong or bad information and few if any with sources) that Geni shut down GEDCOM uploading altogether. It has since been reintroduced on a (hopefully) restricted basis (there are still bugs in the process).

The thing to do with discovered medieval duplicates nowadays is to post them in this Discussion: https://www.geni.com/discussions/158450

That brings them more quickly to curators' attention, and they can be isolated (*not* merged) and dealt with.

Somebody seems to be fixing this at the same time as I'm trying to :-) Either way, it should be solved. Thanks for the alert.

Terry Jackson (Switzer) When you have the time, could you take a look at Geoffroy I, duke of Brittany? He's acquired perhaps a few extra children (and spouses?). Once you get them 'sorted', then we can use the nifty "new" Relationship Locks.

@Private User said, "The thing to do with discovered medieval duplicates nowadays is to post them in this Discussion" (on Feb. 2, 2020)

I said here six weeks ago (on Dec. 20, 2019), addressing the OP: "I hope you don't mind if I take this opportunity to again cross-reference your discussion with the Medieval Duplicates thread. I'm sure the curators are already working on it and we'll hear from them and see some results very soon."

https://www.geni.com/discussions/158450?msg=1351462

https://www.geni.com/discussions/205535?msg=1351694

Dan Cornett thanks for alerting me to this - real life has been rather full on lately.

I was going to detach this profile for Emme de Bretagne from her parents as I can't see a source for their connection but there does seem to be a lot of confusion over this profile - She is down as wife of Robert de Brus but then there seems to be argument about this too!