Joscella (Hicela) Trpimirović Orseolo, of Croatia - MedLands

Started by Livio Scremin on Wednesday, December 11, 2019
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probably there are a simple couple of inverted brides between the two cousins.
Area info strictly in native speakers, I'm pasting links to MedLands in profiles.
*http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/CROATIA.htm#Stjepandiedafter1024

-Hicela Svetislavić, of Croatia (ML wife)*
-Kralj Stjepan I (Stjepan III Dobroslav) Trpimirović, of Croatia

-Stjepan Svetislavić (ML husband)*
-Strezina Šubić Bribirka Svetislavić Svetoslavić

The children, however, seem okay ..what do you think?

The Italian encyclopedia agrees with GENI,
yet MedLands actually reverses the 2 cousins.

Private User and what do you think?

Hi Livio,
Thank you for working in this area. I have entered this while ago, and since have not gone back to review. I do not feel like doing it right now, as it will require me to go back to reading.
Feel free to use your judgment, also Emin is a native speaker, maybe he can help.

yes, it is an ancient and delicate area, and you have to be in a mood to get your hands on it, I gave my contribution from the Italian-Venetian part..

..maybe Ozren Čulić Viskota Žava without haste can give a read to Croatian sources... (without blindly following MedLands:) [no hurry:]

There is no real historian among Croatian Curators, so I am not sure who would be a good fit. We are all hobby genealogists (I am a mathematician, for example) - we do what we can.

TNX Ozren:

* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trpimirovi%C4%87_dynasty#Family_tree
* https://hr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Obiteljsko_stablo_dinastije_Trpimirov...

and for the same tree a references, sources and books:
* http://www.enciklopedija.hr/Natuknica.aspx?ID=62491
* Goldstein, Ivo, Hrvatski rani srednji vijek, Novi Liber, Zagreb, 1995. ISBN 953-6045-02-8 book
* Šišić, Ferdo, Povijest Hrvata, pregled povijesti hrvatskog naroda 600.-1526., prvi dio, Marjan tisak, Split, 2004. ISBN 953-214-197-9 book
* Hrvatski leksikon (1997, A-Ž, 2 volume, in Croatian
* Intervju – ДИНАСТИЈЕ и владари јужнословенских народа. Special Edition 12, 16 June 1989.

OK, try to take a look now (never, ever I thought I should do it :)

PS. Private User PLZ check this your Margarita Trpimirović insertion, from what little the automatic translator tells me, of all those kilometers of cut size, I think it refers to other centuries...

Livio...pay attention to two part of text...first one at begining where text explain about curch of St.Stephan in Dubrovnik..one theory say that it was built by donation of BOSNIAN king Stjepan wich lived around year 815...GOOGLE TRANSLATE like this:

It is difficult to resist the temptation and not to state that many news stories have not been recorded and that they have not reached us, but that many of them were recorded by the wickedness of people and the accidents of the times, and that the old Dubrovnik chroniclers and their relatives are later historiographers who say much about themselves In the patriotic rapture, they were invectively plucked and plucked, and on the basis of their historical expression, stood out to their rivals the Venetians, with whom they wrestled for the primacy of antiquity, lordship and glory, thus pushing themselves first to the detriment of the truth, so that they gloss over the past , and others sought to turn and mutilate what would be irrefutable in a dispute (to the contrary). According to this, as so many other news, so does this one about the construction of the church of St. Stephen29 is unclear. This church was certainly built a long time ago, as evidenced by the work of Constantine, citing the principal churches and powers of the saints aloud, in the cities of Roman Dalmatia, for Dubrovnik writes: Coeterum in eadem urbe depositus fuit S. Pancratius in aede S. Stephani, quae est in media urbe (Banduri, p. 91),. Razzi writes: dell 'anno 815. vogliono alcuni scrittori, fosse fatta by almeno ristaurata et aggrandita la chiesa di S. stefano, con ispesa di mille e ottocento ducali e che in quella fossero poste le sacre reliquie, le quali prima slavano nella chiesa di S. Sergio (p. 16). Likewise, in the correspondence of one of the oldest chronicles of Dubrovnik it is stated that Stjepan was the Bosnian king in 815 for the construction of the church of St. Stjepan gave 6000 perps of Dubrovnik and put the doodle of Srdjan Stojko as chaplain (Zibaldone II, p. 13). Later, Stjepan went to Dubrovnik to work the vows and endowed rich churches with endowments and churches, and to the city which at that time was spread over an area of He grunts to the top of Srđ and to the end of Višnjica, he bestows; Parish, Brgat, Sumet and Rijeka. Then, shortly after 819, Stephen died, his widow Queen Margarita, with her two nobles; Jelina and Lucija moved to Dubrovnik, because 29 Map - designation: an - eastern part 40 was related to the noble family Cruce. According to her, she is at the church of St. Stephen, erected a monastery and lived as a dummy (nun) in it until 827, and with her money she built a rampart from Pustierna to the gate of the old town on the Lava, next to the church of St. Margarita, which was previously erected and after which the door was named. In 1571 the people of Dubrovnik wanted to fortify the town better against the Turks, demolished (demolished) the church and erected the bell tower of St. George in its place. Margarita30, and a little further behind the Soldiers' Exit, the present church of St. Margarite31, as immortalized by the inscription (Skurla, pp. 65-70.) Regina Bosnae Margarita traditur Dicasse temlum Margaritae Virgini Olim beata cum fuere saecula; Id nunc saccellum transtulere providi Patres, Marte circum moenia fragments Cum classe Cypro Rex Selimus imminet Crijevic, S. (Prolegomena in sacram ...) writes: Ecclesia S. Stephani Protomartyris aedificata circa annum 930, instaurata anno 1050, antiqua Pontificis sedes cathedralis at terremotu 1667 eversa adhuc in ruderibus iacet. Coletius and M. Gundulic appreciate that the church of St. Stephen built by Pavlimir in 875 AD. (p. 37), and Skurla (p. 5) thought; that it can be held freely, that the church was built by the people of Dubrovnik, and then when they themselves are expanding their first small land. This Skurla opinion seems most appropriate to me, since the first construction of the church of St. Stephen must have happened in the first half of the 10th century, because otherwise Constantine could not say anything about the temple.

The mentioned King Stephen is difficult to find among the Bosnian rulers. According to the scarce news of Bosnia by XI. For centuries, with short periods of independent independence, she changed various masters, now falling to the Serbian princes or the Eastern emperors. Years. 1082-85. Bodin of Dukla, gave it to 46 Prince Stephen (Klaić, 1882, pp. 42-45). Well, this Bosnian Prince Stjepan Nit could have been the founder or renovator of the church of St. Stjepan, not so rare benefactor of Dubrovnik, that the city, from his death in the black wrapped, would so much mourn and celebrate with so unusual anecdotes his treasured memory, as it was precisely this Prince of Bosnia who tried to turn his back on Dubrovnik's independence (Resti, p. 31 .). Among the Croatian rulers in IX. and the tenth century also has no steppes. King Stephen I was mentioned only in the XI. During the centuries that he defended Dalmatia against the Saracens, he could have come into contact with the people of Dubrovnik, and in the service he did to them, defending and protecting them and their naval trade against pirates, he apparently appeared to them as a friend and a great benefactor. It is more difficult to understand how he could donate the surrounding villages from Zupa to Zaton to Dubrovnik, since at that time Dalmatia was dependent on the Venetian Doge, which was only abducted by Stjepan's successor, Petar Kresimir. It is true that the Venetian rule in Dalmatia was quite thin at the time, and that the Venetians were not able to defend Dalmatia from Saracen, but had to afford Stephen and calmly watch that he was also defending that Venetian Dalmatia by defending himself. And precisely because of this Venetian weakness, it might be possible that he gave those places to Dubrovnik for their greater security, which they had come to expect. Croatian King Stephen I was married to Hicel the daughter of a Venetian duke. However, he also seems to have remarried and married Margarita, a relative of the Croce family from Dubrovnik, who because of this became even more fond of Dubrovnik and mediated with her husband that he and Dubrovnik should have a more friendly relationship. Certainly without contradiction of more appropriate reasons and contemporary external evidence, it could be admitted that this Croatian King Stjepan, the temple of his namesake Sv. He renewed and enlarged Stephen in Dubrovnik and endowed him with rare holy powers, precious vessels, linen and rich endowments, and expanded the Dubrovnik land. '

I don't know, I see again generic cut paste kilometric, but however the profile deleted.
I see again fresh clones and merges (those made in Venice brought me here).
I see profiles cut out without explanation...
I also see a new zombie [(private or alive) but you also have several in your white tree too]

It seems to me that you are making too many substantial changes without leaving a trace of the sources you are following.
Considering your privacy so much armored to even hide the start date (but grandparents entered only this month) I can only wonder if you have enough practice to touch the Middle Ages. {NO!}

I did not touch anything on Joscella (Hicela) Trpimirović Orseolo except unknown second hasbend of her....Its more likely that her Husband Stjepan had second wife after her death..if you know more about her life,please update....
....and yes,i am amateur but did have lots of readings about Croatian history and kings..

This is not official document site and it is open to upgrades...also you must know Croatian history is not writen so precise like Venetian...on Balkan pennisula was always some kind of war and chaos...so i will repeat again what someone sad before me

¨It is difficult to resist the temptation and not to state that many news stories have not been recorded and that they have not reached us, but that many of them were recorded by the wickedness of people and the accidents of the times, and that the old Dubrovnik chroniclers and their relatives are later historiographers who say much about themselves In the patriotic rapture, they were invectively plucked and plucked, and on the basis of their historical expression, stood out to their rivals the Venetians, with whom they wrestled for the primacy of antiquity, lordship and glory, thus pushing themselves first to the detriment of the truth, so that they gloss over the past , and others sought to turn and mutilate what would be irrefutable in a dispute (to the contrary).

...for every name where i changed something there is link to Wikipedia and there you can search for more relevat history documents as sources...

My privacy is my thing and its irrelevant to the subject..

Hi Livio,
Another user privacy settings should not be your concern.
Please stick to the history, and remove your unpleasant comment, please

if a user with 15 days of experience on GENI detaches millennial profiles from the tree, instead you should be interested..

..anyway in order of importance remains to attack the cutted OFF mini line of Čika Opatica (The Nun) Medijevac to her father Kralj Stjepan I (Stjepan III Dobroslav) Trpimirović, of Croatia

maybe fill in the international multilingual and paste the summary of MedLands.
--------
with regard to the other profiles cut off, and the king born 20 years after his father's death, I fully agree with your provate message, this part of the tree is closer to you. Good luck :)

-another shift, without source links: Čika Opatica (The Nun) Medijevac

-another stray clone: Čika Trpimirović

-http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/CROATIA.htm#KresimirIIIdied1029B
b) CICCA (-after 1087). "Cresimir rex Chroatie et Dalmatie, filius Stephani regis" confirmed the privileges of "monasterio sancte Marie Iadrensis" founded by "soror mea Cicca", with the consent of "nostri ducis Stephani", by charter dated 1066 ... .... .... .... ....

LIvio
You are completely wrong here - if you scroll down you can see the source - name of the book, even a page number is there.
It is a well known and respectable book. Not everything is on the Internet.

Nada Klaić, Izvori za hrvatsku povijest do 1526. godine, Školska knjiga, Zagreb, 1972., str. 57

yes sure "completely" ...
but I see the clones reported deleted & the zombie gone :D
-Dujam Medijevac (it's still cutted out without explanation)
-Andrija . (it's still cutted out without explanation)*documented by PDF (does your relative 20-day on GENI know the document system?)
-Demetrius Zvonimir, King of Croatia (is still attached to his father who died 20 years before his birth) I had read that they spoke of descent, it's not said direct, I thought it could be solved by putting an "X profile" in the middle?
- about "Cicca / Cika" ok you want to go against the opinion of MedLands: ok no problem, I have seen many curators believe them wrong I swallow for the European crosses (I also saw others blindly follow them). Precisely for this reason, however, we should mention them and leave a mark that should not be followed. (Always assuming that a 20 day user knows how to move around the "primary sources" site)
-------------------
the Venetian lines above I cleaned and documented them all, my help in Croatia stops here, with you I have already given at home:
-(reminder screen) https://www.geni.com/photo/view/6000000036850731188?photo_id=600000...
-(public 4 sure) https://media.geni.com/p13/1d/80/3f/c0/5344484f24a0e25b/baglioni_14...
-(caused by 1 of this) https://www.geni.com/merge/view?revision_id=74973755520

LIvio
Can you please explain what do you mean with "with you I have already given at home"
If there is something I need to correct, you just need to say it.

A information for All, I created a project for Medieval Croatia-History named on same name here: https://www.geni.com/projects/Medieval-Croatia-History/4475019 , everyone can join, I will keep updating, also other Geni users can participate in project or just only following, and add a useful things and informations.

Note: A project page is connected to Croatia portal and other related projects.

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