Dulcia Bold (Savage) - Desperately Seeking Sources...........

Bradley gives these sources:

http://freepages.rootsweb.com/~hwbradley/genealogy/aqwc586.htm#46086C1

Dulcia SAVAGE

1Roberts, Gary Boyd, The Royal Descents of 500 Immigrants to the American Colonies or the United States (Baltimore: Genealogical Publishing Co., 1993.), p. 348, Los Angeles Public Library, 929.273 R644-1.

2Farrer, William, The Victoria History of the County of Lancaster (London: A. Constable, 1906.), 3:405, Los Angeles Public Library, Gen 942.72 V645 folio.

3Dugdale, William, The Visitation of the County Palatine of Lancaster, Made in the Year 1664-5 (Manchester: Chetham Society, 1872-73.), p. 42, Family History Library, 942.7 B4c v. 84.

4Farrer, W., VCH of Lancaster, 3:405.

Visitations is probably the easiest to locate.

Here’s his page for her husband and children:

http://freepages.rootsweb.com/~hwbradley/genealogy/aqwg586.htm#46086

And for her parents:

http://freepages.rootsweb.com/~hwbradley/genealogy/aqwg1192.htm#19516

Which cites 17 references.

Also see the discussions in the archives of soc.gen.med

https://groups.google.com/forum/m/#!searchin/soc.genealogy.medieval...

The reference from VCH:

53. Metcalfe, op. cit. 16. He had been married in 1464 to Dulcia or Dowse, daughter of Sir John Savage (Dods. MSS. loc. cit. n. 98), but in 1497 the name of his widow was Ellen; ibid. n. 120, 121.

'Townships: Bold', in A History of the County of Lancaster: Volume 3, ed. William Farrer and J Brownbill (London, 1907), pp. 402-409. British History Online http://www.british-history.ac.uk/vch/lancs/vol3/pp402-409 [accessed 8 May 2019].

Reposting for better link

The Visitation of County Palatine of Lancaster: Made in the Year ..., Volume 84 By Sir William Dugdale. Page 42.

https://books.google.com/books?id=FVQJAAAAIAAJ&vq=Savagr&pg...

Comments here suggests Humphrey Savage was his brother in law

From https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/77439977/dulcie-bold

A brief history of the Bold family appears on pp. 402-407 of VCH Lancaster 3. From this source we know that Henry's first marriage to Dulcia Savage [daughter of Sir John Savage] was arranged by his grandfather in Oct. 1464 [the editor of VCH Lancaster quoting as his source "Dods. MSS. cxlii, n. 98"]. Also from this compilation we know that Henry's widow in 1497 was Ellen, and that she was still living, though re-married, in 1527. The various extant visitations give his children by his first wife as Richard, Roger, Tuger, and Matilda (Maud). His son John was by his wife Ellen. Henry Bold was knighted along with Humphrey Savage [likely his brother-in-law] after the battle of Stoke (1487). He was a witness to three deeds dated in Aug. 1489 [Lancashire Record Office - DDBL 55/35-37].

His marriage settlement with Dulcie Savage was dated Oct. 20, 1464 [see Beamont MSS #579], and he was made a knight on Jun. 16, 1487 at the battle of Stoke-on-Trent [see Shaw's The Knights of England 2:25].

Geoff. Baines - your neck of the woods. Any thoughts ?

A comment here:

https://www.wikitree.com/g2g/337673/dulcia-dulce-savage-savage-107-...

“Many Lancashire gentry were Visitation-shy, but the Bolds of Bold were always there, with a long pedigree that just kept getting better. Suspicious at first sight, but it does appear to be derived from dated documents.

Henry Bold and his sons Roger and Toger first appear in Dugdale's Visitation. Roger seems to be otherwise unheard of. Dulcia's father is given as John Savage armiger, not knight.

But Dodsworth called him Sir John, and that's where the trouble starts. Obviously people want to attach her to the Clifton line. On the dates she could be the daughter of either Sir John III or Sir John IV, but neither is known to have had a daughter called Dulcia.

I think we can assume that Mrs Bold was never called Alice or Grace, and those are just attempts to fit her into the Savage tree by borrowing a spare daughter.”

Plantagenet Ancestry: A Study In Colonial And Medieval Families, 2nd Edition ... 2011 Page 143. [https://books.google.com/books?id=kjme027UeagC&lpg=RA2-PA143&am... GoogleBooks] Sir John Savage, K.G. (son of John Savage & Eleanor Brereton) & Katherine Stanley do not show a daughter “Dulcia.” Their 5 daughters were Ellen, Katherine, Margaret, Alice & Elizabeth.

Uploaded to profiles. Making a new John Savage profile as her father, any are welcome to request management and fill in further details.

Marvin Loyd Welborn

This is fixed.

Her father was
John Savage, Esq. and that’s all I know.

Thanks, Erica.

Looking into http://www.tudorplace.com.ar/SAVAGE.htm. I find....

Alice SAVAGE and not Ducible. Interesting.
Born: ABT 1378
Father: John SAVAGE
Mother: Margaret DANYERS
Married: Henry BOLD (Sir Knight) ABT 1415

It also lists her mother.

Wondering who put "Ducile" in as a name....

Or more readably....

Alice SAVAGE and not Ducible.

Born: ABT 1378

Father: John SAVAGE

Mother: Margaret DANYERS

Married: Henry BOLD (Sir Knight) ABT 1415

There was an earlier generation Bold / Savage marriage, that’s how Dulcia’s Name gets fudged as Alice.

In fact there seem to have been continuing Savage / Bold associations.

Notes from https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/117054634/richard-bold on Dulcie’s son Richard:

In 1524 John Savage, knight, of Nottingham and others sold to Richard Bold, knight, lands, tenements, and hereditaments of John Savage in the lordship of Ditton and Widnes [Lancashire Record Office DDX/480/26/39-43].

Sir Richard Bold's Inquisition Post Mortem was recorded at Widnes Manor on December 15, 1528 [Lancashire Record Office DDX 480/26/15].

You may wish to search here for him, as supposedly he mentioned his mother’s burial location.

https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/results/r?_q=Richard+bold...

Here is that Alice Savage

With added notes. I don’t know if this is a mixup or what.

I don’t see that Alice Savage in Visitations for Bold, and the only other Henry was Henry’s Grandfather, who married a Gracia.

https://books.google.com/books?id=FVQJAAAAIAAJ&vq=Savagr&pg...

Thanks for your work, Erica. It's a lot of information to digest, whilst opening a lot of questions.

From what I read in the archives at the mail list, soc.gen.medieval, the Bold pedigrees are considered reliable (although I was struggling with some of the phrasing’s used in Victoria County Histories, Discussion of the manor of Bold).

It seems that The Visitation of County Palatine of Lancaster: Made in the Year 1664-5, Volume 84, by Sir William Dugdale, Page 41-43, “Bold of Bold,” is a good guide, and there is primary documentation at the National Archive and the local archive.

I’m thinking that what happened is that one record - the 1464 Marriage settlement - led to a chase to place this Savage daughter in a Savage family. Wrongly.