Mary Martha Gwaltney (Marriott) - Parentage issues

Heck...I don't know....ya lost me chapters ago....this is like a "who's on first" episode....

I don't remember why I got involved in this tree....probably somebody.... somewhere was a dna match. I am blood to the surname Pittman on both my mom AND dad's sides, but don't see a connection to this Thomas....yet. Then the one thing you put shows an indirect involvement with the Collins (Collings) name. Where was my first revision into this? What did I merge?

I admit to being lost at this point too. So I'll post a recap of what I had in my direct line of descent at the beginning of this discussion, and you can see whether it makes any sense when you change the dates or if it goes up in a poof of smoke.

Matthew Atkins b.1588 in England d.???? in Virginia
Thomas Atkins Sr. b. after 1608 in England, m. Mary Gwaltney around 1627, d. before 1655 in Virgina
Thomas Atkinson Jr. b. abt 1629 in Virgina, m. Susan Gwaltney his sister around 1650, d. 1658
John Atkinson b. 1658 d. 1717
Ann Atkinson b. 1670-1748
Henry John Jarrell b. 1720 d. 1753

That should be enough generations for the dust to settle. Notice that the last two generations has Ann Atkinson having a son at the age of 50 which is pushing it. Shifting all the generations prior to Henry John forward would make more sense of his birthdate. But I have doubts about him too. When you compare the profiles of Henry John and his brother Thomas III, they seem to have the same wife and the same son William. I think it's possible that Thomas and Henry are the same person, or that each of them had a son named William and the sons have been conflated. All of William's children are listed under the Henry John Jarrell lineage.

I keep thinking of the dishes that Mary Gwaltney wanted for her children as part of her marriage contract with Pittman. The only thing I can think of that makes sense is that she wanted them for a teenage child that was about to be married and needed housewares. Dishes might not have been easy to get hold of in the colonies at that time. The kitchen was definitely the woman's department in those days, so it makes more sense to me if the child was a girl. But it would also work for a son who was about to set up housekeeping as a bachelor, or was marrying a girl who couldn't afford her own crockery.

Well...this must be my involvement....

https://www.geni.com/path/Diana+is+related+to+Susannah-Atkinson?fro...

I looked at your timeline some more, and I think the information below is what you’re proposing. It works well enough, but I don’t see any support for the birthdates of the children in the Pittman report. They might have mentioned their ages in their wills, but that information isn't quoted.

Mary waited an unusually long time to marry her first husband, unless she had another husband before Atkinson who wasn’t recorded and didn’t give her any children. I see that the family tree in Geni has been adjusted so that Thomas Jr is now the brother of John Atkinson instead of his father, and William Gwaltney is now the son of Thomas Gwaltney and an unknown first wife.

One fly in this ointment is that the Gwaltney family website at http://gwaltney.faithweb.com/beginnings.html says “Around 1655, Thomas and Martha conceived a child, William, who was to carry on the Gwaltney name.” I don’t know where they got this information. They’re not sure whether the couple had a daughter or not, so it doesn’t sound like they have an original document like a family bible listing the birth. All the information on the site seems to be public records that are endlessly cited on the internet.

The timeline as I understand it:
1618 Birth of Mary Martha in England

1648
Mary is Age 30
Marriage of Mary Martha Pittman to Thomas Atkinson
Surry County , Virginia, United States

1648
Mary is Age 30
Birth of Thomas Atkinson, Jr.
Surry County , Virginia
Thomas would be 18 years old in 1666, the year Mary married Pittman

1652
Mary is Age 34
Birth of John Atkinson, Sr.
Surry County, Virginia, United States
John would be 14 in 1666

1656
Mary is Age 38
Birth of James Atkinson, Sr.
Surry County, Virginia
James would be 10 in 1666

1656
Mary is Age 38
Marriage of Mary Martha Pittman to Thomas Gwaltney.
Surry County, Virginia, United States
That’s a fast turnaround between being widowed and remarried, but if she had three young children she needed help. Englishwomen were scarce in the colonies so Gwaltney might not have minded the baggage that came with her.

1666
Mary Age 48
Marriage of Mary Martha to Thomas Pittman
Surry, Virginia, USA

1679
Age 61
Death of Mary Martha
Surry County, Virginia Colony

PS on Mary getting married for the first time at age 30. Not being able to find a husband in England could have been a reason for coming to the colonies, where Englishwomen were in short supply. I've read that a lot of the male settlers took Indian wives because there weren't enough English women to go around. A single woman arriving in Virginia wouldn't have to wait long for a proposal.

There could be other reasons for not marrying sooner of course.

It is of course possible Mary Martha (it still bothers me to see her with alternate first names) was married and widowed before her Atkinson marriage, or that she had earlier Atkinson children who did not survive; or who had already grown and moved on before her Gwaltney marriage.

If Thomas arrived 1635, already married or married soon after, Mary married at the usual for the time / place age.

We’re going to have record issues because they didn’t survive. We likely have already seen most for Mary’s generation, but should continue down the Atkinson side.

Let’s look at the names in the court records.

Surry Court Records, op. cit. "Book 1, page 281 4 Cot. 1666. Conditions agreed upon between Capt. Thos. Pitman and Mrs. Mary Gualtney, before marriage. Thos. Pitman gives bond that the Widow Gaultney after marriage with him, shall have the whole disposal of a horse and mare which she now has to dispose of at her own pleasure, as also two pewter dishes and cattle, now called and known to be for the two youngest children, also her youngest son, Wm. Gwaltney, may have two years' schooling. Signed: Thos. Pitman; Wit.: Roger Potter, Luke Mizelle." [The author assumes from this that she had at least 3 children, Susanah and William and an Unknown daughter who married an Atkinson.]

Ibid, page 56. "Book I, page 273. 30 June 1666. Marye Gualtney, aged 48 or thereabouts, saith that today five weeks or soe about, Goodman Bartley came unto her and said that his wife was not well, but when she came found that Ann Simpson had a female child, etc. Katherine Clarke, age 36 years, also testified and said that Goodman Gualtney came to her before she was up, to tell her that Good Bartlett's daughter had this child. Dorothy Barlett, Aged 50 years testified about this matter ..

——

The Katherine Clarke who is aged 36 in 1666 (b 1630) would be the wife of the John Clarke who described Gwaltney intent to write a Will. This Clarke is closely associated, but not Mary’s daughter.

——

Thomas Atkinson b 1608 arrived 1635 in Virginia primary immigrant (no family listed), referenced in Hotten & Coldham. No indenture mentioned. “Immigrant 1635 "13 July 1635, These underwritten names are to be transported to Virginia, embarked in ALICE, Richard Orchard, Mr. ..”

Unless he had a family in England brought over later, he did not have children born before 1635.

I do not see Thomas Atkinson on this passenger list however

https://www.packrat-pro.com/ships/alice.htm

Here is Thomas Atkinson in Hotten

https://archive.org/details/originallistsofp00hottuoft/page/109

If I've counted right (doubtful), there are 32 names on the first list and 34 on the second. I didn't go through every single one of them, but it looks like most if not all of the names on the first list are also on the second list. I can see that Thomas Atkinson and Jo. Viccars are on the second list but not on the first one.

It looks like 1608 is the correct birth year for Thomas Atkinson. The list says he was 27 in 1635.

We have a new problem. The wife of Matthew Atkinson is too young to be the mother of Thomas Sr. Mary Atkinson

P.S. 1608 is the correct birth year for Thomas Atkinson senior, not junior.

I wonder if the Miles Atkinson age 22 on the passenger list is the brother of Thomas. They're not listed next to each other which might mean that they're not connected.

The father Matthew is supposed to be an immigrant too but I don't see him on the list.

I had the same reaction - that Miles Atkinson b 1613 could be a brother of Thomas b 1608. Could be a cousin, could be unrelated. Should look for more signs of him in Virginia.

I tend not to believe English parents given without seeing what the claim is based on.

It’s hard to tell from the printed layout. This list from Hotten is not the ship passenger manifest; I think it’s the list of those swearing allegiance to the Crown before embarking in London. So it would be in “signed order,” not family group order. But it’s significant. There’s no note of indenture for instance.

Search on Atkinson in Wills and Administrations of Surry County, Virginia, 1671-1750 By Eliza Timberlake Davis

https://books.google.com/books?id=4hVElQgDPokC&q=Atkinson+#v=sn...

Doesn’t help with the immigrant generation but does show a continuing association between Atkinson’s & Gwaltney’s.

Search on Atkinson in Surry County Records, Surry County, Virginia, 1652-1684 By Eliza Timberlake Davis

https://books.google.com/books?id=WCH_7LB7ItgC&q=Atkinson+#v=sn...

Page 61 is relevant and should be uploaded to profiles

https://books.google.com/books?id=WCH_7LB7ItgC&q=Atkinson+#v=on...

According to http://sites.rootsweb.com/~vaschsm/PitmanT.rtf Thomas Pitman Sr did “not” marry Lydia Pitman - she was the wife of his “only” known child Lt. Thomas Pitman, II

Which means there are more extra children, this time Pitman’s, to re - home.

I've seen the information in the Wills book and the County Records book on genealogy websites. I didn't pay much attention to the one because it was the wrong time period for me. After the birthdates for the Atkinson kids were revised, I thought it was kind of weird that they could swear off on a legal release at their age. But the laws were different then, and maybe they thought it was more appropriate to have the kids do it than to have their mother do it on their behalf.

There are interesting cascade effects when you find a timeline that's really messed up. I found one today where it looked like someone had been entered as their own grandmother.

Yes, we may still need some fooling around on Birth dates. For when the children of an orphan (that is, deceased father) could sign at what age, law for the period is covered well at this site:

https://genfiles.com/articles/

Did you notice that apparently Thomas Atkinson Sr had left a Will? No sign of it so far.

More on Thomas Atkinson son of Thomas b 1608. I was correct in identifying his wife although he’s more conservative about her maiden name:

http://sites.rootsweb.com/~vaschsm/PitmanT.rtf

THOMAS1 ATKINSON (stepchild of Thomas1 Pitman), was born about 1648 and died in Isle of Wight County after 19 Jan 1687/8.[] He married SUSANNAH (---), the step-daughter of Robert Flake, in Surry County.[] Susannah was dead by 1699 when her will was presented to the Isle of Wight County court ....

There's nothing in the Legal Rights link that quite matches the situation we're looking at, but I get the impression that the children probably could have done the legal release if they were at least 14.

Working from memory which is dangerous, but I think I've seen sites assigning a birthdate of 1640 to one of the kids. That would put them over the age of 14 without messing up the timeline for Mary's birthdate.

But we can't push them back too far or the youngest one will be too old to need more schooling.